Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by musicbloke)
    I personally think stupidity has a large part to play in this discussion.

    MB
    Seeing as you're talking about me, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by musicbloke)
    Ok, what I mean by culturally stunted is a disengagement from art, from critique, and from an ability to engage with society. A belief in the importance of things that are by their very nature (i.e. on both a mimetic and a formal level) underdeveloped and lacking in any aesthetic or intellectual value. The belief that pleasure is a reasonable end in itself with a disregard for history or the true complexity of subjectivity. Ascribing value to objects outside of a critical discourse. Comprendez?

    MB
    I would say they represent the opposite of that. The mixture of forms within musical theatre provides an effective way of creating a relationship with the audience and that can be used to engage with society for sure. While some musicals are just for entertainment's sake, and I do not have a problem with that and neither do a lot of critically informed practitioners, a great number certainly are not purely a vehicle for pleasure and do not just have value outside critical discourse.
    I think for intellectual value, just look to the source material. People keep bringing up Les Mis so I guess I have to return to that...it would be hard toargue that there is no intellectual value in the work of France's most celebrated author.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    Seeing as you're talking about me, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree
    I believe my point about stupidity just kicked in

    MB
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by Indievertigo)
    Hardly. Music is interpreted individually, that's part of the magic of it. Just because it doesn't have a profound effect on you doesn't mean it won't have a profound effect on someone else. I remember watching an orchestra play Autumn from the four seasons. Someone in front of me was crying, the person sitting to my left was smiling serenely, and I was appreciating.
    I think this is a very valid and important point to remember in this debate
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    So do you think opera is only for stupid people and children then?
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by musicbloke)
    I believe my point about stupidity just kicked in

    MB
    OK, now I'm confused... :confused:

    I was aware from the outset that you were saying I'm stupid Is that what you mean?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    OK, now I'm confused... :confused:

    I was aware from the outset that you were saying I'm stupid Is that what you mean?
    In a syllogism:

    1) you are stupid
    2) you disagree with me
    3) therefore, your disagreement is based on stupidity.

    :p:

    MB
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Less of the ad hom please.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    It wasn't ad hom. We're talking about people's engagement with musicals. If you want to remove the "people" from that, then we have nothing to discuss (which, I suspect, would be what you want).

    MB
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by musicbloke)
    In a syllogism:

    1) you are stupid
    2) you disagree with me
    3) therefore, your disagreement is based on stupidity.

    :p:

    MB
    :eek: :cry: :p:
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by musicbloke)
    Musicals are for children
    And homosexuals.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by musicbloke)
    It wasn't ad hom. We're talking about people's engagement with musicals. If you want to remove the "people" from that, then we have nothing to discuss (which, I suspect, would be what you want).

    MB
    You just said someone was stupid therefore their argument was stupid. Very fallacious and I'm telling you to cut out talk like that as it's not civil and therefore not in line with the rules. If your argument is so superior and convincing, surely you can make it without insults.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Acaila)
    You just said someone was stupid therefore their argument was stupid. Very fallacious and I'm telling you to cut out talk like that as it's not civil and therefore not in line with the rules. If your argument is so superior and convincing, surely you can make it without insults.
    She was the one who associated herself with the people I deemed to be stupid. Oh, and you should look up the :p: smiley in the smiley dictionary.

    MB
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by Acaila)
    You just said someone was stupid therefore their argument was stupid. Very fallacious and I'm telling you to cut out talk like that as it's not civil and therefore not in line with the rules. If your argument is so superior and convincing, surely you can make it without insults.
    To be fair, I was goading him to see whether he'd actually go as far as calling me stupid
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Don't be provocative then!

    And the tongue smiley has nothing to do with your language.


    So Sondheim anyone? Brecht/Weill?
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by Acaila)
    Don't be provocative then!

    And the tongue smiley has nothing to do with your language.


    So Sondheim anyone? Brecht/Weill?
    Sorry!

    I don't know much about Brecht/Weill. We were hoping to do some for our summer production instead of an opera, but I think we decided it would be too difficult
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by musicbloke)
    Musical examples from musicals please, that can have a profound effect. I bet I can provide 20 examples from serious music, for adults, that out-do any one of yours, and show your tastes to be both nondescript and childish.

    MB
    I'm not interested in having an "I'm more sophisticated and cultural than you" match. It's frankly pathetic. I don't care if you think my tastes are "nondescript and childish" - ultimately you know little about me or what my tastes are. "Profound" isn't an absolute value and different things affect different people. For every example of "serious music" you provide, I imagine I can find 1000 people that it leaves cold. Just because you don't share my tastes (not that you know what they are, mind) doesn't make you better than me, just different.

    What is your problem with people enjoying what they enjoy? Do you think people can help their tastes? Do you think people should succumb to peer pressure to 'improve' their tastes? For the vast majority of people, 'taste' is not a rational or intellectual matter, and I don't see why it should be.

    I don't believe Kant - I don't think true beauty demands universal assent. I think everyone is a little different, and every mind is a little different. What moves one person might leave another cold and while we (as a species) are quick to judge, maybe we should hold our tongues occassionaly as well.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    Sorry!

    I don't know much about Brecht/Weill. We were hoping to do some for our summer production instead of an opera, but I think we decided it would be too difficult
    Tbh I don't like anythng Brecht went near, but he's hardly work directed at children or stupid people.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Wagner would be tossing in his grave.

    Actually, his grave is properly moronproof.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Schmokie Dragon)
    I'm not interested in having an "I'm more sophisticated and cultural than you" match. It's frankly pathetic. I don't care if you think my tastes are "nondescript and childish" - ultimately you know little about me or what my tastes are. "Profound" isn't an absolute value and different things affect different people. For every example of "serious music" you provide, I imagine I can find 1000 people that it leaves cold. Just because you don't share my tastes (not that you know what they are, mind) doesn't make you better than me, just different.

    What is your problem with people enjoying what they enjoy? Do you think people can help their tastes? Do you think people should succumb to peer pressure to 'improve' their tastes? For the vast majority of people, 'taste' is not a rational or intellectual matter, and I don't see why it should be.

    I don't believe Kant - I don't think true beauty demands universal assent. I think everyone is a little different, and every mind is a little different. What moves one person might leave another cold and while we (as a species) are quick to judge, maybe we should hold our tongues occassionaly as well.
    So what you're saying is that you're against people talking about aesthetic value because some people may be upset?

    MB
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Has a teacher ever helped you cheat?
    Useful resources

    Articles:

    TSR wiki music section

    Quick link:

    Unanswered music threads

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Write a reply...
    Reply
    Hide
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.