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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    You are wrong, you can't own opportunity. You can stick some measure on it and it might be fairly accurate, but its not quantitative and the figures you give it can only ever be an estimation.

    Seriously, you are just as bad as the people who say 'we don't want state schoolers at oxbridge' and other stupid prejudiced stuff. Discrimanations works both ways, and sorry but discriminatining against private schoolers is a hell of a double standard.
    :five:
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    (Original post by Elementric)
    Clearly paying for education for your child is comparable to slavery and hiring assassins.

    /end sarcasm.
    haha, no you've misunderstood again. I was not saying the two are comparable, just that it is not correct to claim that all transactions are legitimate just because they are freely made transactions.

    Consider: a man could sell the whereabouts of a civil rights activist to a KKK member. This is freely made, voluntary transaction but it certainly seems to be immoral. If you don't like the abstract nature of selling whereabouts, we can change the example to "he sells him a gun and a map".

    Also, your criticism seems a bit rich from someone who earlier compared the phasing out of private schools to totalitarianism!
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    I did?
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    I'm saying we should minimise coercion. Presumably you believe poverty to be a bad thing - in the same vein do you surely not believe that it would be impossible to eradicate poverty? Does that mean that you don't agree with any measure that reduces the amount of poverty?
    Your the one arguing against an idea which would really reduce poverty in this country - not myself.
    Opportunity is abstract.
    No more abstract than money. Lets guess - now you want to move to a barter system as well....
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    (Original post by Elementric)
    I did?
    oops sorry confused posters, thought you were bagration. my bad.

    You're still wrong though
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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    You are wrong, you can't own opportunity. You can stick some measure on it and it might be fairly accurate, but its not quantitative and the figures you give it can only ever be an estimation.
    In this country you can. For example you can buy a house in a better catchment area which buys your kids the opportunity to go a better school. The problem is that there is effectively a market in opportunity - which operates in a manner contrary to fairness, or at least giving everyone a reasonably equal shot at life.
    Seriously, you are just as bad as the people who say 'we don't want state schoolers at oxbridge' and other stupid prejudiced stuff. Discrimanations works both ways, and sorry but discriminatining against private schoolers is a hell of a double standard.
    No - the current system is discriminatory on background. All I want is for the top students to admit the brightest students - as opposed the dim but well educated.

    The thing you have to remember is these people have a choice where they send their children to school - the other 90+% don't. Its merely correcting injustices.
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    (Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
    In this country you can. For example you can buy a house in a better catchment area which buys your kids the opportunity to go a better school. The problem is that there is effectively a market in opportunity - which operates in a manner contrary to fairness, or at least giving everyone a reasonably equal shot at life.

    No - the current system is discriminatory on background. All I want is for the top students to admit the brightest students - as opposed the dim but well educated.

    The thing you have to remember is these people have a choice where they send their children to school - the other 90+% don't. Its merely correcting injustices.
    No - you want a system of discrimination against private school students. Don't try and spin it any other way. If you want to correct injustices, then lets try and improve the state education system, not start dsicriminating against privatet school students. You don't fix discrimination with more discrimination.
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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    No - you want a system of discrimination against private school students. Don't try and spin it any other way. If you want to correct injustices, then lets try and improve the state education system, not start dsicriminating against privatet school students. You don't fix discrimination with more discrimination.
    Why is banning private schools discriminatory? That would seem to imply that there is a right to go to private school...

    (instead of saying 'yes' to that read the above posts which demonstrate that there is no such right)
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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    No - you want a system of discrimination against private school students. Don't try and spin it any other way. If you want to correct injustices, then lets try and improve the state education system, not start dsicriminating against privatet school students. You don't fix discrimination with more discrimination.
    No, I want there to be no private school students in the first place. Should have the effect of improving the state school system.
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    (Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
    No, I want there to be no private school students in the first place. Should have the effect of improving the state school system.
    It's been said before and it'll likely be said again... if you ban private schools, then all the people going to private schools, likely being from the same social class and environment, and probably geographic region, will in all likelihood all go to the same state schools, thus raising the standards of those schools. The vast majority of the people who weren't going to private schools will not be going to those state schools and thus you'll have the same situation as now, except that rich people won't even be paying fees for the best education for their children.
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    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    It's been said before and it'll likely be said again... if you ban private schools, then all the people going to private schools, likely being from the same social class and environment, and probably geographic region, will in all likelihood all go to the same state schools, thus raising the standards of those schools. The vast majority of the people who weren't going to private schools will not be going to those state schools and thus you'll have the same situation as now, except that rich people won't even be paying fees for the best education for their children.
    They will be getting the same education as everyone else. As I said elsewhere - I intend to abolish the ridiculous notion that parents can choose which school to send their children.
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    (Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
    They will be getting the same education as everyone else. As I said elsewhere - I intend to abolish the ridiculous notion that parents can choose which school to send their children.
    Even if parents don't choose, they're still going to get put into the same schools simply because of location of residence; rich people tend to live together. Unless you want to introduce something as ridiculous as desegregation busing.

    And if they do cluster together, who's going to get the best teachers and staff? My mother works as a teacher at one of the best state schools in my city. If I asked her if, putting aside all emotional attachment to her current workplace, she'd be willing to go and work at one of the worst at the same pay-grade and with the same job description, she'd say no in a heartbeat. Good teachers make for a better education than bad ones. And even ignoring that, the notion that it'd be equal is ludicrous anyway. Rich parents could still pay for the best equipment, not to mention private tutoring if necessary.
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    (Original post by Cognito)
    Why is banning private schools discriminatory? That would seem to imply that there is a right to go to private school...

    (instead of saying 'yes' to that read the above posts which demonstrate that there is no such right)
    He said: 'Who said I would have to ban it - all that would need to happen is for universities to do their job properly and remove the business case of private schools.'
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    (Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
    No, I want there to be no private school students in the first place. Should have the effect of improving the state school system.
    No it won't, it will worsen the state school system. At the moment we have a system where all tax payers fund the state system. Private school students parents also fund their own childrens education on top of that. They are relieving some of the burden on the state system by not sending their kids there. So if private schools all close down, then thats a huge number of new students having to become part of an already stretched state system. Great idea :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    Even if parents don't choose, they're still going to get put into the same schools simply because of location of residence; rich people tend to live together. Unless you want to introduce something as ridiculous as desegregation busing.
    Actually that's exactly what I would do. Well until catchment areas were well and truly dusted - then the problem would be solved.
    And if they do cluster together, who's going to get the best teachers and staff? My mother works as a teacher at one of the best state schools in my city. If I asked her if, putting aside all emotional attachment to her current workplace, she'd be willing to go and work at one of the worst at the same pay-grade and with the same job description, she'd say no in a heartbeat. Good teachers make for a better education that bad ones. And even ignoring that, the notion that it'd be equal is ludicrous anyway. Rich parents could still pay for the best equipment, not to mention private tutoring if necessary.
    If the job were done properly - removing private schools would be just be part of the revolution. Schools would need to be redefined too - it would make good sense to do it at the same time. Also, at secondary level, I would take out the bottom 25% and send them to an intensive catch up school. Bear in mind that the bottom 25% at age 11 can barely read and write - sending them straight off to a comp would just waste 5 more years and disenfranchise them.

    As for the rich parents - private tuition would be recorded too and go on a students academic record.
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    (Original post by Cognito)
    haha, no you've misunderstood again. I was not saying the two are comparable, just that it is not correct to claim that all transactions are legitimate just because they are freely made transactions.
    That's right; transactions are legitimate if they are freely made and they don't aggress on anybody's person or property. I don't see how this rules out private schooling, particularly.

    Consider: a man could sell the whereabouts of a civil rights activist to a KKK member. This is freely made, voluntary transaction but it certainly seems to be immoral. If you don't like the abstract nature of selling whereabouts, we can change the example to "he sells him a gun and a map".
    I agree that this is immoral, but I still don't think the state should stop people selling maps!
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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    No it won't, it will worsen the state school system. At the moment we have a system where all tax payers fund the state system. Private school students parents also fund their own childrens education on top of that. They are relieving some of the burden on the state system by not sending their kids there. So if private schools all close down, then thats a huge number of new students having to become part of an already stretched state system. Great idea :rolleyes:
    Schools are not really lacking too much in money anymore, its leadership they lack. We would make the money back in better governance, extra charitable donations and so on because daddy can't have his children go without.
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    (Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
    If the job were done properly - removing private schools would be just be part of the revolution. Schools would need to be redefined too - it would make good sense to do it at the same time. Also, at secondary level, I would take out the bottom 25% and send them to an intensive catch up school. Bear in mind that the bottom 25% at age 11 can barely read and write - sending them straight off to a comp would just waste 5 more years and disenfranchise them.
    You do realize that schooling should be about education, not social engineering? I mean, it sounds like you're really bitter about some people actually getting a decent education and you want to make sure it never happens!
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    (Original post by DrunkHamster)
    You do realize that schooling should be about education, not social engineering? I mean, it sounds like you're really bitter about some people actually getting a decent education and you want to make sure it never happens!
    Well said.
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    (Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
    Schools are not really lacking too much in money anymore, its leadership they lack. We would make the money back in better governance, extra charitable donations and so on because daddy can't have his children go without.
    Rubbish. You cannot assume that you would somehow 'make the money back' on donations etc.
 
 
 
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