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Is Engineering Badly Paid And A Dead End? watch

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    (Original post by Mush)
    Yes, a small percentage of your patients go on to great things. A large majority are nobodies. Junkies, yobs, obese chronically smoking jobless folk and so on.


    ********. I'm a 2nd year Engineering student and I've been through my 1st year. My dearest girlfriend is currently a 1st year medic and we both agree that the workload I went through is quite massive in comparison to hers.
    true a lot do not go on to change the world, but i was saying that we keep people alive which can be a great thing for the future of the world.

    im doing medicine at edinburgh and in comparison to everyone else doing engineering here, i have about 5 times the workload. it may be different in english unis but in scottish ones, the first year is really easy as the maths etc. is all from higher/advanced higher
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    this thread is brilliant
    really informative
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    (Original post by FTC199)
    true a lot do not go on to change the world, but i was saying that we keep people alive which can be a great thing for the future of the world.

    im doing medicine at edinburgh and in comparison to everyone else doing engineering here, i have about 5 times the workload. it may be different in english unis but in scottish ones, the first year is really easy as the maths etc. is all from higher/advanced higher
    We're from Glasgow. We're not English. We got to Glasgow university.
    Maybe Edinburgh isn't as renowned for it's Engineering then. Or maybe the Medicine at Glasgow isn't as renowned.

    Then again maybe it's my particular branch of Engineering. It is Rocket Science after all, and I know Edinburgh doesn't have it, because Glasgow is the only uni in Scotland with an Aerospace department.
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    (Original post by Mush)
    We're from Glasgow. We're not English. We got to Glasgow university.
    Maybe Edinburgh isn't as renowned for it's Engineering then. Or maybe the Medicine at Glasgow isn't as renowned.

    Then again maybe it's my particular branch of Engineering. It is Rocket Science after all, and I know Edinburgh doesn't have it, because Glasgow is the only uni in Scotland with an Aerospace department.
    i fancied doing aerospace engineering about 5 years ago but then realised i just liked the idea, i didnt want to do anything engineering-y

    medicine at glasgow is very different from edinburgh because there it is PBL (and if im correct it is 2 cases a week plus some clinical skills). here we have about 15 lectures per week plus a PBL case each week and either clinical skills or anatomy depending on the week. we have to go over lectures every night which takes about 2.5 hours for each 1 hour lecture and PBL research is 2-3 hours a week as well so i am often working (including lectures) from 9 till 9:30 with a break for my tea each day of the week
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    (Original post by Mush)
    Well it depends how you want to look at it. Anything is 'noble' so long as it's not fun to do, and you persist at it anyway. If being a Doctor was easy peasy, and patients brought you flowers, and you worked 9-5, and people never died then it wouldn't be noble at all. The reason it's noble is because you're working a lot more hours than other professions during unsociable times of the day and in longer shifts. Most patients hate you and don't appreciate your care one bit, your patients die all the time, and it has massive effects on your personal life - most doctors can kiss goodbye to a regular night out each weekend and a steady partner until they're 35+. So is it worth it? I most certainly don't think that being considered 'noble' is worth going through that. For 2 reasons:

    1) The people who would consider you to be 'noble' is the public, and the public don't have a clue. If the public hailed me as the next Jesus, I wouldn't think anything of it, because these are the people who follow the every footstep of Britney Spears and Abi Titmuss via The Sun.

    2) It's not REAL 'nobility'. It's by default. You haven't achieved anything to become noble, you've just put up with harsh conditions for a lot longer than any self-respecting human being would .

    So who do you think deserves more credit, the Doctor who puts people into MRI machines and reads their scans, or two SCIENTISTS/ENGINEERS who made that technology possible by engineering the machine to begin with? I can tell you that not a single doctor has received the Nobel Prize for operating an MRI machine, but those two scientists/engineers got it.

    Who gets more credit, Alexander Fleming (Chemist/Biologist/Engineer) who invented penecillin, or the doctors who prescribe it?

    Worshiping the doctor above the engineer is like worshiping the pilot of an aircraft over the guy who gave him the means to fly. Without Engineers, medicine would be useless and 'faith healers' would be in big business.

    And equally, you just trivialised Engineering as building buildings??!?!?!? Hahaha.
    :shifty:Ok. I know engineering is more than building buildings. I'm not a ****. I was trivialising the way I felt you trivialised. "Doctors keep people alive. Dentists keep teeth healthy." Does that sound familiar? Can I assume that we both smart enough to know that all these professions are a lot more than that?

    And despite everything you've said, everything, including nobel prizes, gaining credit, fame, going down in history books, worship (even though I don't worship anything)... 100% I would still say "saving a life" is still a more nobel profession. Nothing mechanical or man-made can substitute saving a life. Machines fail everyday. That's why we praise the pilot who lands the plane to safety. That's why we praise the surgeon who spends eight hours in surgery to save one life. Or the dentist who rebuilds a persons confidence by giving her a better smile. Or the psychologist who.... I could go on. My point is I place people above feats of engineering, everytime, and in no way do I feel that just because a person follows Abi Titmus day-to-day scandals in the sun, that their opinion is any less valuable. That's elitist.


    Of course I'm generalising a bit. I know the importance of engineering, (like I said, I'm applying for architecture, so I have some scope...) and I have tonnes of respect for engineers. My dad is an engineer, and he's one of the most intelligent people I know.

    Anyway, end.
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    (Original post by Mush)
    The world appreciates engineering fiats more than medical fiats.
    Actually, I hear the rapid-response time of medical Fiats is unparalleled by more traditional modes of transportation.
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    (Original post by FTC199)
    i fancied doing aerospace engineering about 5 years ago but then realised i just liked the idea, i didnt want to do anything engineering-y

    medicine at glasgow is very different from edinburgh because there it is PBL (and if im correct it is 2 cases a week plus some clinical skills). here we have about 15 lectures per week plus a PBL case each week and either clinical skills or anatomy depending on the week. we have to go over lectures every night which takes about 2.5 hours for each 1 hour lecture and PBL research is 2-3 hours a week as well so i am often working (including lectures) from 9 till 9:30 with a break for my tea each day of the week
    I fancied switching to medicine after my undergraduate degree up until about 8 months ago. Then I realised I didn't know enough about the career and that there was probably a massive downside to the social status and financial rewards - a little research confirmed my hunch.

    Yes that's right about Glasgow Medicine. 2 PBL sessions per week and inbetween there's maybe 10 hours of lectures in vocational studies, clinical skills, aswell as labs and hospital/GP visits etc.

    But we're not comparing Glasgow to Edinburgh for medicine we're comparing medicine/dentistry to Engineering. So here's my 1st year, last year:

    Mon-Fri the lectures and labs took up a vast majority of the day from 9am to 5.30pm, with an hour for lunch, and one day a week or so there was a 2 hour break which was filled by a lab every other week. On top of that there was the studying for exams which, for me, took up around 3 hours a night every night when I got home, and that's not including the reading I did on the train between uni and home, so probably 4 hours in total. So I was working til probably 10 at night most week nights, just to have my weekends free. This happened until about a month before the exams at which point I was working until 11 with NO free weekends.

    Last year we were lucky enough to get exam break during xmas but this year the uni has switched exams to BEFORE xmas, meaning there's 4 weeks less to prepare and NO study break. So it's even harder for this years first years than it was during my first year.

    I had 12 subjects last year, which boiled down to 7 lab reports, 4 coursework assignments, 9 examinations, and loads of studying...

    I don't think it's fair to say that 1st year Engineering is considerably less demanding than first year medicine. It probably varies between unis and courses, but as far as my first year in Aeronautical Engineering at Glasgow, and your first year of Medicine at Edinburgh go, I'd say we were about par.
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    (Original post by Mush)

    Without Engineers, medicine would be useless and 'faith healers' would be in big business.
    without chemists both (certain) engineers and medics would have problems(they research drugs and materials for building etc.)

    before engineers, doctors helped women give birth, sewed up gaping wounds, performed surgery to cure people (albeit it was risky) and did so many other things so we are not "useless" without engineers.

    also - the people who won the nobel prize for medicine this year were DOCTORS who researched the HPV virus and the workings of HIV so we understand that people can have immunity to HIV
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    (Original post by Dijobla)
    :shifty:Ok. I know engineering is more than building buildings. I'm not a ****. I was trivialising the way I felt you trivialised. "Doctors keep people alive. Dentists keep teeth healthy." Does that sound familiar? Can I assume that we both smart enough to know that all these professions are a lot more than that?

    And despite everything you've said, everything, including nobel prizes, gaining credit, fame, going down in history books, worship (even though I don't worship anything)... 100% I would still say "saving a life" is still a more nobel profession. Nothing mechanical or man-made can substitute saving a life. Machines fail everyday. That's why we praise the pilot who lands the plane to safety. That's why we praise the surgeon who spends eight hours in surgery to save one life. Or the dentist who rebuilds a persons confidence by giving her a better smile. Or the psychologist who.... I could go on. My point is I place people above feats of engineering, everytime, and in no way do I feel that just because a person follows Abi Titmus day-to-day scandals in the sun, that their opinion is any less valuable. That's elitist.


    Of course I'm generalising a bit. I know the importance of engineering, (like I said, I'm applying for architecture, so I have some scope...) and I have tonnes of respect for engineers. My dad is an engineer, and he's one of the most intelligent people I know.

    Anyway, end.
    Well whether you're an Engineer or a Doctor, I don't hand out respect based on professions. I hand out respect based on achievements and the motivations behind them.

    A large proportion of Doctors out there are Doctors because of the money, the status, and parental pressure. So even if they are savings lives, the motives couldn't be further removed from 'wanting to help people'. So no, these people get none of my respect, regardless of how much their profession demands it. There's nothing noble about greed or ego.

    Sure, there are Engineers out there with the same motives, but considerably less so, given that the status of Engineering in this country is a lot less so than it should be. And also, as we've confirmed, if you want big money, then you go for banking/medicine/dentistry, not Engineering.

    I have every respect for the Doctor who gets his rewards from seeing the patient walk through the doors at the end of their therapy, and absolutely no respect for the Doctor who gets his rewards when he checks his bank balance. I have every respect for the Engineer who gets his rewards from seeing his idea change and improve the world, and no respect for the Engineer who gets his rewards from his bank balance. It just so happens that the latter folk are much more dense in Medicine than Engineering.
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    (Original post by FTC199)
    without chemists both (certain) engineers and medics would have problems(they research drugs and materials for building etc.)

    before engineers, doctors helped women give birth, sewed up gaping wounds, performed surgery to cure people (albeit it was risky) and did so many other things so we are not "useless" without engineers.

    also - the people who won the nobel prize for medicine this year were DOCTORS who researched the HPV virus and the workings of HIV so we understand that people can have immunity to HIV
    They're not Doctors in terms of... working as a GP or working in a hospital though, are they? They're researchers first, medical doctors second.
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    (Original post by Mush)
    I fancied switching to medicine after my undergraduate degree up until about 8 months ago. Then I realised I didn't know enough about the career and that there was probably a massive downside to the social status and financial rewards - a little research confirmed my hunch.

    Yes that's right about Glasgow Medicine. 2 PBL sessions per week and inbetween there's maybe 10 hours of lectures in vocational studies, clinical skills, aswell as labs and hospital/GP visits etc.

    But we're not comparing Glasgow to Edinburgh for medicine we're comparing medicine/dentistry to Engineering. So here's my 1st year, last year:

    Mon-Fri the lectures and labs took up a vast majority of the day from 9am to 5.30pm, with an hour for lunch, and one day a week or so there was a 2 hour break which was filled by a lab every other week. On top of that there was the studying for exams which, for me, took up around 3 hours a night every night when I got home, and that's not including the reading I did on the train between uni and home, so probably 4 hours in total. So I was working til probably 10 at night most week nights, just to have my weekends free. This happened until about a month before the exams at which point I was working until 11 with NO free weekends.

    Last year we were lucky enough to get exam break during xmas but this year the uni has switched exams to BEFORE xmas, meaning there's 4 weeks less to prepare and NO study break. So it's even harder for this years first years than it was during my first year.

    I had 12 subjects last year, which boiled down to 7 lab reports, 4 coursework assignments, 9 examinations, and loads of studying...

    I don't think it's fair to say that 1st year Engineering is considerably less demanding than first year medicine. It probably varies between unis and courses, but as far as my first year in Aeronautical Engineering at Glasgow, and your first year of Medicine at Edinburgh go, I'd say we were about par.
    maybe we are slightly, although for both of us it is a fairly new subject (i have never studied medicine before and you have never studied aeronautical engineering before uni)

    i work on weekends as well, solidly so i can catch up from during the week and, although i dont have ID yet, can only really afford the time to go out to the union once a fortnight. exams are before christmas for me which means that i get 1 week off before my two exams (just how the exam timetable ahs panned out) and i need to know everything for both of them as even though the course is split into two halfs just now, both parts are in both exams and i need to know it all in depth.

    my boyfriend is doing computing and electronic systems engineering at strathclyde and can afford the time to come back to edinburgh every weekend for work (until christmas) and can go out every tuesday. he gets a lot of tests during term time but they are easy as it is all 6th year work max and so he only has to do about 2 hours studying per night.

    the only people im friends with from school who have a comparible workload are at oxbridge, the rest are having a phenomenally easy first year
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    (Original post by FTC199)
    maybe we are slightly, although for both of us it is a fairly new subject (i have never studied medicine before and you have never studied aeronautical engineering before uni)

    i work on weekends as well, solidly so i can catch up from during the week and, although i dont have ID yet, can only really afford the time to go out to the union once a fortnight. exams are before christmas for me which means that i get 1 week off before my two exams (just how the exam timetable ahs panned out) and i need to know everything for both of them as even though the course is split into two halfs just now, both parts are in both exams and i need to know it all in depth.

    my boyfriend is doing computing and electronic systems engineering at strathclyde and can afford the time to come back to edinburgh every weekend for work (until christmas) and can go out every tuesday. he gets a lot of tests during term time but they are easy as it is all 6th year work max and so he only has to do about 2 hours studying per night.

    the only people im friends with from school who have a comparible workload are at oxbridge, the rest are having a phenomenally easy first year
    Well maybe the difference between me and your boyfriend is that I finished top of the year with all As, and he passes exams. And we actually have a lot of Engineers who switched from Strathclyde this year to Glasgow, and I've heard plenty of comments about how much the ante has been upped.

    So in fairness we have concluded that both Medicine and Engineering varies depending on which uni you're at, how much you want to achieve, and which particular branch of Engineering you study. Which leads us to the very profound result that Medicine is NOT more demanding or difficult than Engineering in general, and that it depends on particular circumstances. In some cases Medicine is more difficult, in other cases Engineering is.
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    (Original post by Mush)
    They're not Doctors in terms of... working as a GP or working in a hospital though, are they? They're researchers first, medical doctors second.
    they dont work as a GP or in a hospital setting but they are trained as doctors and work as scientific researchers for the benefit of medicine as that is the specialty they wanted to go into (research is a specialty) so they are still classified as doctors
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    Engineering is hard, alot of work load. But worth it, Im working everyday, from 9am to 10pm, with small breaks in between. Don't tell me engineering is easy, compared to ****** medicine. we save more lives than a medic can, why? we build a bridge, which has to transport millions of people a year. therefore if it breaks then we can easily kill 100s of people. while a medic can only save one life at a time.
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    (Original post by Mush)
    Well maybe the difference between me and your boyfriend is that I finished top of the year with all As, and he passes exams.
    out of 552 people doing the maths exam, he came top. The average mark was 24/33, he got full marks. He got AAAA at AH as well last year and puts so much effort into things, but this year is p*** easy for him
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    (Original post by Profesh)
    Actually, I hear the rapid-response time of medical Fiats is unparalleled by more traditional modes of transportation.
    Wrong kind of fiat. Engineering fiats are more usually concerned with saying things like "this is a hard hat area - no hat, no access", while medical fiats might say "turn off all mobile phones in this hospital". :yep:
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    (Original post by FTC199)
    they dont work as a GP or in a hospital setting but they are trained as doctors and work as scientific researchers for the benefit of medicine as that is the specialty they wanted to go into (research is a specialty) so they are still classified as doctors
    So what about the Material Engineers who work with Medical Researchers to engineer develop bio-active materials which interact with bone tissue to be implemented as hip replacements/etc? And what about the Mechanical Engineers who develop and test mechanical hearts that can fully replace a genuine heart? Are they considered Medical Doctors? Why not? They're doing the same job for the same cause!
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    stop arguing about such petty things - NOBODY CARES IF YOUR BOYFRIEND DID BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE. Is he at a top university? (cambridge,oxford,imperial etc) no? Then there are LOTS of people who did better than HIM!

    anyway moving back to the original topic:
    how much money you earn and how much you get out of a career is proportional to how much you put in.
    Somebody with an engineering degree could easily be making 100k in later life, but somebody with a medical degree that couldnt care less may only be making the same as when the graduated.
    OP: Do what you feel you are going to enjoy the most
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    (Original post by Mush)
    So what about the Material Engineers who work with Medical Researchers to engineer develop bio-active materials which interact with bone tissue to be implemented as hip replacements/etc? And what about the Mechanical Engineers who develop and test mechanical hearts that can fully replace a genuine heart? Are they considered Medical Doctors? Why not? They're doing the same job for the same cause!
    if they dont have an MBChB or MB BS degree then they arent medical doctors.

    i agree they are working to do the same job but they do not have the same degree classification so they are no medical doctors. equally the medical researchers are not engineers.

    we all need each others skills, otherwise one person could do everything and we wouldn't have a use for anyone else but from my experience, this is harder.

    we were told that you learn more new words doing a medicine degree than doing a language degree from scratch so we are effectively doing a language degree along with a medical one
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    (Original post by Higgy90)
    stop arguing about such petty things - NOBODY CARES IF YOUR BOYFRIEND DID BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE. Is he at a top university? (cambridge,oxford,imperial etc) no? Then there are LOTS of people who did better than HIM!
    actually, stratchclyde IS a top uni for his course. and why are your top unis all in england? do you think all scottish unis are **** just because you are paying £3000 a year whereas his course is free?

    im just not wanting him to get ****ged off by someone who has no idea
 
 
 
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