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Jamie
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#201
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#201
(Original post by vienna95)
Again, I dont really see what the problem is in stating whether you believe Hamas to be a terrorist group or not. Hamas practically invented Islamic terrorism that Al-Qaeda now replicates.
Hamas and Al-Queda differ greatly, and you know it.
Hamas is more of a nationalist group for palestinians. It is heavily involved in welfare, and healthcare, and then has armed branches which are involved in continued attacks on israel. Hamas has never (to my knowledge) attacked a target outside of palestine/israel. It hasn't targetted foreign jewish or christian targets. Hamas hasn't half the islamic fundementalist rhetoric of Al-queda.
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Jamie
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#202
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#202
(Original post by vienna95)
We might define the cause of the Israeli government to be firstly, to govern and represent the State of Israel, concepted as a homeland for the Jewish people, and secondly, to protect and maintain the right to exist of citizens of the State of Israel.

Mad Caddie would have us believe that the cause of Hamas is the foundation and existence of a Palestinian state. This is deemed more noble than that of Israel based on what grounds other than racial differences?

This would also be consistent with Mad Caddie's belief that Hamas' declared goals of genocide and destruction of the Jewish state are more noble than the cause of the Israeli government.
I think the simple fact is...everyone loves an underdog - which in this case is the palestinians...
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Tyler Durden
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#203
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#203
(Original post by randdom)
I didn't really want to get into it so i voted on the question and the question only.
Perhaps that would've been the sensible thing for me to do. Oh well.
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Vienna
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#204
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#204
(Original post by englishstudent)
Well then that is where we differ. That is also why I didn't vote "yes" in the poll. If I was answering purely that question then perhaps I would agree
What other question was on the poll? I certainly cant see any other implication.

- Hamas have carried out acts of terrorism. However, all the connotations of the poll are to do with questions of right and wrong.
No, its whether Hamas are terrorists or not. If you view that terrorism to be right or justified or wrong or unjustified then we can discuss that elsewhere. This poll relates to whether you believe Hamas to be terrorists or not. Its very simple.

As you have admitted, you believe some groups to be "more right" than others. Let me guess, American-backed Israel?
I believe Israeli measures to have more political legitimacy than terrorist acts of murder yes.
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Vienna
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#205
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#205
(Original post by randdom)
I didn't really want to get into it so i voted on the question and the question only.
Which is the entire point of the poll. I wouldnt ask for anything more.
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Vienna
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#206
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#206
(Original post by foolfarian)
Hamas and Al-Queda differ greatly, and you know it.
Hamas is more of a nationalist group for palestinians. It is heavily involved in welfare, and healthcare, and then has armed branches which are involved in continued attacks on israel.
I agree that Hamas funds Palestinian society, but its actions are ones of a terrorist group.

Hamas has never (to my knowledge) attacked a target outside of palestine/israel. It hasn't targetted foreign jewish or christian targets.
Following Israeli anti-terrorist operations in Syria, Hamas declared it would target Jews outside of Israel.

Hamas hasn't half the islamic fundementalist rhetoric of Al-queda.
Hamas' goals take their legitimacy from Islam.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/...s/charter.html
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Vienna
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#207
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#207
(Original post by foolfarian)
I think the simple fact is...everyone loves an underdog - which in this case is the palestinians...
Which would explain much of the motivation for somehow declaring this poll to be "mindless" and over simplified. Some people are simply uncomfortable assessing the actions of Hamas. If someone believes that the actions of the IDF, the Israeli/Palestinian situation, determines or influences the sending of men, women and children into busy cafés to murder innocent civilians, as being terrorism or not, then that is a personal opinion, vote accordingly. If you believe that irrespective of the cause of the Palestinian people, that Hamas is a terrorist group, funded and concepted to commit acts of terror against the State of Israel, then vote accordingly.

These opinions, our definitions of terrorism, and the assessment procedure we take to acheive a decision in regard to the poll question are all of value to a debate on this thread. However, I reject the notion that somehow this poll is narrow minded and over simplified. I would love to hear suggestions about how that poll could have been more objective in light of the thread topic, which is how we define the group known as Hamas.
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Jamie
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#208
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#208
(Original post by vienna95)
I agree that Hamas funds Palestinian society, but its actions are ones of a terrorist group.


Following Israeli anti-terrorist operations in Syria, Hamas declared it would target Jews outside of Israel.


Hamas' goals take their legitimacy from Islam.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/...s/charter.html
1) Not everything is black and white. Not all terrorist organisations are the same.
2) Saying is one thing, doing is another...
3) They have no need to take legitimacy from Isloam. Their principle cause is obvious and fair enough. How they go about it is another matter. And no, their principle cause isn't to wipe out jews, its to regain their homelands.
I think in recent years Hamas has been infiltrated by more hawkish islamic fundamentalists - like israel has taken on board jewish fundementalists.
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Vienna
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#209
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#209
(Original post by foolfarian)
1) Not everything is black and white. Not all terrorist organisations are the same.
But they are still terrorist organisations then.

2) Saying is one thing, doing is another...
The point clearly demonstrates that Hamas is willing to threaten JEWS OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL.

3) They have no need to take legitimacy from Isloam. Their principle cause is obvious and fair enough. How they go about it is another matter. And no, their principle cause isn't to wipe out jews, its to regain their homelands.
Should I infer their goals from their actions and declarations or from you?

I think in recent years Hamas has been infiltrated by more hawkish islamic fundamentalists - like israel has taken on board jewish fundementalists.
You mean the Israeli government has become more Jewish fundamentalist?
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Apollo
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#210
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#210
(Original post by englishstudent)
It's a two-way conflict. Neither side is in the right.
Erm i dont at all see how my post said one side was right. Mad caddie said the israeli's would wipe out the palestinians, and i said they could help that situation by not killing themselves as often as possible.
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Tyler Durden
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#211
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#211
(Original post by PadFoot90)
Erm i dont at all see how my post said one side was right. Mad caddie said the israeli's would wipe out the palestinians, and i said they could help that situation by not killing themselves as often as possible.
My point was merely that the main cause of Palestinian death is Israeli attacks. I wasn't disagreeing.
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Apollo
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#212
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#212
(Original post by englishstudent)
My point was merely that the main cause of Palestinian death is Israeli attacks. I wasn't disagreeing.
Ah, my bad
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Tyler Durden
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#213
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#213
(Original post by PadFoot90)
Ah, my bad
No - I wasn't very clear.
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Jamie
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#214
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#214
(Original post by vienna95)
But they are still terrorist organisations then.


The point clearly demonstrates that Hamas is willing to threaten JEWS OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL.


Should I infer their goals from their actions and declarations or from you?


You mean the Israeli government has become more Jewish fundamentalist?
I've shown my willingness to threaten people on this site before. Doesn't mean i'm gonna hunt them down and slaughter them like dogs though...

And yes, the israeli government has bcome more jewish fundamentalist.
Whats up, don't think i should connect those two words together?
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Repentance
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#215
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#215
[QUOTE=vienna95]I agree that Hamas funds Palestinian society, but its actions are ones of a terrorist group.


QUOTE]

how about the jewish force? It takes two to tango…You say Hamas are terrorist and they you link them up with al-Qaeda? :confused: can you see the difference between them?

Hamas-merely standing up for their country and people, not terrorists....
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MC
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#216
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#216
To vienna, I would just like to point out that on her recent visit to the West Bank, Condoleezza Rice referred to Hamas and alike groups as militants.
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Jamie
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#217
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#217
(Original post by Mad Caddie)
To vienna, I would just like to point out that on her recent visit to the West Bank, Condoleezza Rice referred to Hamas and alike groups as militants.
And as it has been pointed out many times before, the intelligence of Rice is not debatable (unlike that of Bush). She doesn't tend to make faux pas/slip ups.
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Vienna
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#218
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#218
(Original post by foolfarian)
Whats up, don't think i should connect those two words together?
Which two?
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MC
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#219
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#219
(Original post by vienna95)
Which two?
"israeli government" and "jewish fundamentalist"

I think he meant two terms instead of 2 seperate words.
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Vienna
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#220
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#220
(Original post by Mad Caddie)
To vienna, I would just like to point out that on her recent visit to the West Bank, Condoleezza Rice referred to Hamas and alike groups as militants.
Id be interested to see such a quote, although it would be consistent with a recent change in US policy.

As of 2004, these are listed as Foreign Terrorist Organisations..

Abu Nidal organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Ansar al-Islam (AI)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
‘Asbat al-Ansar
Aum Supreme Truth (Aum) Aum Shinrikyo, Aleph
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Communist Party of Philippines/New People’s Army (CPP/NPA)
Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG)
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Harakat ul Mujahidin (HUM)
Hizballah (Party of God)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM)
Jemaah Islamiya (JI)
Al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad, EIJ)
Kahane Chai (Kach)
Kongra-Gel (KGK, formerly Kurdistan Workers’ Party, PKK, KADEK)
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
Lashkar I Jhangvi (LJ)
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK or MKO)
National Liberation Army (ELN)—Colombia
Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine–General Command (PFLP-GC)
Al-Qaida
Real IRA (RIRA)
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)
Revolutionary Nuclei (RN)
Revolutionary Organization 17 November (17 November)
Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) 135
Salafi st Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path or SL)
United Self-Defense Forces/Group of Colombia (AUC)
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