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Gentilhomme
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#261
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#261
(Original post by faa)
LOL- Atleast what the Israelis are fighting for is real and actually there, not all that rubbish that the Palestinians are fighting over (religion)!
are you saying that isrealy religious text entitled them tp have the land but not the palestinian.
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Gentilhomme
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#262
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#262
(Original post by faa)
LOL- Atleast what the Israelis are fighting for is real and actually there, not all that rubbish that the Palestinians are fighting over (religion)!
are you saying that isrealy religious text entitled them tp have the land but not the palestinian.
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Vienna
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#263
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#263
(Original post by Gentilhomme)
are you saying that isrealy religious text entitled them tp have the land but not the palestinian.
the fact that israel exists entitles them to the land
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Gentilhomme
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#264
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#264
So Is Palaestine
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Vienna
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#265
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#265
(Original post by Gentilhomme)
So Is Palaestine
What is Palestine?
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an Siarach
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#266
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#266
(Original post by vienna95)
the fact that israel exists entitles them to the land
What land?
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Vienna
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#267
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#267
(Original post by an Siarach)
Which land?
Israeli land.
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an Siarach
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#268
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#268
(Original post by vienna95)
Israeli land.
Defined as?
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Vienna
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#269
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#269
(Original post by an Siarach)
Defined as?
Land under the jurisidiction of the Israeli government.
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an Siarach
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#270
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#270
(Original post by vienna95)
Land under the jurisidiction of the Israeli government.
Regardless of legality? Regardless of how land came to be under its jurisdiction?
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Vienna
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#271
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#271
(Original post by an Siarach)
Regardless of legality? Regardless of how land came to be under its jurisdiction?
Other than the land allocated to it by the UN, Israel obtained parts of Gaza and the West Bank following conflict with Jordan and Egypt. Since there has been no peace since, Israel is entitled to retain such land that was fairly disputed by Egypt and Jordan. Neither wish to reclaim such land. When aggression ceases against Israel, that land will be allocated to the creation of a Palestinian state consistent with that originally offered on two previous occasions. Until then, the land remains under Israeli jurisdiction.
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Gentilhomme
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#272
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#272
Vienna your thought are sooo incoherent and astray that i am afraid that noone is going to be able to reason with you on this issue, You ve made up your mind and closed the book of reason.
MY point:
wasnt it you who was so hasty at stressing that palestinian want to cleasen the jewish ethnic and yet now you seems to deny the most fundamentale thing which is the existence of the palestinians and their right to have a homeland
""What is Palestine?"" are your words.
acknowledge that palestinians have a land as well and as rigthfull as the isrealiens
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Vienna
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#273
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#273
(Original post by Gentilhomme)
MY point:
wasnt it you who was so hasty at stressing that palestinian want to cleasen the jewish ethnic and yet now you seems to deny the most fundamentale thing which is the existence of the palestinians and their right to have a homeland
""What is Palestine?"" are your words.
acknowledge that palestinians have a land as well and as rigthfull as the isrealiens
Im not denying it, im asking you what it is. I recognise the wish of the Palestinian Arabs to a state of their own, and hope they will have one.
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Gentilhomme
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#274
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#274
the places where isreal occupies wrongfully
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Vienna
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#275
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#275
(Original post by Gentilhomme)
the places where isreal occupies wrongfully
I believe you mean the Palestinian Arab territories, which you wish to see become a Palestinian state? Palestine includes Israel and parts of Jordan I believe.
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an Siarach
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#276
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#276
(Original post by vienna95)
Other than the land allocated to it by the UN, Israel obtained parts of Gaza and the West Bank following conflict with Jordan and Egypt. Since there has been no peace since, Israel is entitled to retain such land that was fairly disputed by Egypt and Jordan.
Entitled by what? You seem to be claiming that a state of war still exists between Jordan/Egypt and Israel which is untrue.
(Original post by vienna95)
Neither wish to reclaim such land. When aggression ceases against Israel, that land will be allocated to the creation of a Palestinian state consistent with that originally offered on two previous occasions. Until then, the land remains under Israeli jurisdiction.
(Edited to improve question)And do you believe aggression against Israel would have ceased earlier had it a)withdrawn from land which was populated by hostile peoples and to which it had no claim beyond that of might is right b)immediately created the palestinian state/allowed the palestinian state to be created instead of c)displacing the native peoples and replacing them with Israelis?

Also, as you suggest that Israels occupation is legitimate as it is not contested by Egypt/Jordan and so presumably had the war progressed to an extent which saw one of the aforementioned states entirely occupied they would also legitimately considered be Israeli land as the state would no longer exist and thus could not contest the occupation? Or would you consider the contention of the native peoples to be enough? (a pointless question but may as well ask) Do you believe in self-determination?
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Vienna
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#277
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#277
(Original post by an Siarach)
Entitled by what? You seem to be claiming that a state of war still exists between Jordan/Egypt and Israel which is untrue.
No, neither Egypt or Jordan contest the land. The land is contested by a people that have no formal state but technically lived under the jurisdiction of Jordan and Egypt. We want to see a Palestinian state formed but what formal right do these people have to claim the land from Israel?

And how much sooner would aggression have ceased against Israel had it a)withdrawn from land which was populated by hostile peoples and to which it had no claim beyond that of might is right
The aggression existed because Israel existed which is why the Arab Nation rejected the UN proposal for a two state solution in Palestine. Jordan and Egypt annexed this land as part of aggression against Israel.

b)immediately created the palestinian state/allowed the palestinian state to be created instead of
How can Israel create a state for a people that twice rejected the opportunity themselves?

c)displacing the native peoples and replacing them with Israelis?
Displacing from the land afforded to Israel?

Also, as you suggest that Israels occupation is legitimate as it is not contested by Egypt/Jordan and so presumably had the war progressed to an extent which saw one of the aforementioned states entirely occupied they would also legitimately considered be Israeli land as the state would no longer exist and thus could not contest the occupation?
They would be occupied terroritories and one would hope that Israel would agree to cease occupation providing that its security could be assured.

Or would you consider the contention of the native peoples to be enough? (a pointless question but may as well ask)
Since Israel occupied a formerly recognised nation state, then it would be logical to assume that an agreement could be reached whereby its occupation cease and the state reestablished.
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an Siarach
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#278
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#278
(Original post by vienna95)
No, neither Egypt or Jordan contest the land. The land is contested by a people that have no formal state but technically lived under the jurisdiction of Jordan and Egypt. We want to see a Palestinian state formed but what formal right do these people have to claim the land from Israel?
What 'formal' right does Israel have to the land?
(Original post by vienna95)
The aggression existed because Israel existed which is why the Arab Nation rejected the UN proposal for a two state solution in Palestine. Jordan and Egypt annexed this land as part of aggression against Israel.
I agree with what you say hear but you do not answer my question. Do you think the aggression would have ceased sooner had Israel not occupied an entirely hostile people and had it not started planting its own people and displacing the native peoples?
(Original post by vienna95)
How can Israel create a state for a people that twice rejected the opportunity themselves?
In this context i would consider the opportunity to create a palestinian state as an opportunity to have a completely independant and autonomuos nation - or simply a solution acceptable to the palestinian arabs. Was that offered by Israel? And if so, was it rejected by the palestinian people or by egyptian/jordanian politicians who have no interest in the wellbeing of the palestinian arabs - who use them only for political gain?
(Original post by vienna95)
Displacing from the land afforded to Israel?
Displaced from the land annexed by Israel. It seems strange to displace people from their homes if you wish purely to allow them their own state dont you think? And rather antagonistic as well, dont you think?
(Original post by vienna95)
They would be occupied terroritories and one would hope that Israel would agree to cease occupation providing that its security could be assured.
So the nations occupied by Germany were legitimately occupied during the second world war as the states formerly in contention with Germany no longer existed? Should Israel be conquered at some point by a vicious Islamic/Arab regime any action taken by the Arabs against Israel will be legitimate as, to quote you from a previous thread; those without their own land have rights to nothing ?(in reference to the palestinians)
(Original post by vienna95)
Since Israel occupied a formerly recognised nation state, then it would be logical to assume that its occupation cease and the state reestablished.
Agreed.
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Vienna
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#279
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#279
(Original post by an Siarach)
What 'formal' right does Israel have to the land?
It occupied it during a time of war. It has not been disputed by the states that formally occupied it.

I agree with what you say hear but you do not answer my question. Do you think the aggression would have ceased sooner had Israel not occupied an entirely hostile people and had it not started planting its own people and displacing the native peoples?
But what were they occupying? The land was annexed by Jordan. Jordan hasnt asked that Israel cease to occupy its land, Palestinian Arabs decide that they wish to create a state of Palestine that would include part of the land that was ruled over by the Ottomans, ruled by a British mandate, annexed by Jordan and then taken by Israel. Jordan and Egypt remained hostile to Israel, so I dont believe that returning this land to anyone would have ended aggression toward Israel.

In this context i would consider the opportunity to create a palestinian state as an opportunity to have a completely independant and autonomuos nation - or simply a solution acceptable to the palestinian arabs. Was that offered by Israel? And if so, was it rejected by the palestinian people or by egyptian/jordanian politicians who have no interest in the wellbeing of the palestinian arabs - who use them only for political gain?
Im not sure of what period in time you are referring to.

Displaced from the land annexed by Israel. It seems strange to displace people from their homes if you wish purely to allow them their own state dont you think? And rather antagonistic as well, dont you think?
All were offered Israeli citizenship if they wished to remain on Israeli soil. Jordan didnt want the Palestinians, Palestinians wanted their own state. Neither wanted Israel to exist. Israel was not going to concede land to a set of people that were ready to destroy it. They were ready to concede land if aggression ceased.

So the nations occupied by Germany were legitimately occupied during the second world war as the states formerly in contention with Germany no longer existed?
They were legitimately occupied and once the war ended, those countries were liberated. During the war, noone expected Germany to concede land. If Alsaciens rejected a state of their own, remained under the jurisdiction of the French and were then invaded by the Germans, who would expect Germany to recognise Alsace with the prospect of French and allied hostility?

Should Israel be conquered at some point by a vicious Islamic/Arab regime any action taken by the Arabs against Israel will be legitimate as, to quote you from a previous thread; those without their own land have rights to nothing ?(in reference to the palestinians)
Agreed.
That was misleading on my part. Israel would cease to exist as a state or be an occupied state. Palestinians can be neither.
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an Siarach
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#280
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#280
(Original post by vienna95)
It occupied it during a time of war. It has not been disputed by the states that formally occupied it.
So using your justification it would be perfectly legitimate for the nations which neighboured the former Yugoslavia/Chzechoslovakia (or any other example) to annex parts of those nations which, seeing as they were falling apart into new and distinct nations, would not be able to dispute the theft of land.
(Original post by vienna95)
But what were they occupying? The land was annexed by Jordan. Jordan hasnt asked that Israel cease to occupy its land, Palestinian Arabs decide that they wish to create a state of Palestine that would include part of the land that was ruled over by the Ottomans, ruled by a British mandate, annexed by Jordan and then taken by Israel. Jordan and Egypt remained hostile to Israel, so I dont believe that returning this land to anyone would have ended aggression toward Israel.
Again youre rather bodyswerving past the question which does not concern Jordan or Egypt or whoever else but purely the inhabitants of the lands Israel occupied. Had Israel left the occupied territories you would have no Hamas, no Intifada etc - not that i think antagonism and violence would have ceased altogether, but i dont doubt it would have been on a vastly smaller scale and negotiations would have been far easier,far less bitter.
(Original post by vienna95)
Im not sure of what period in time you are referring to.
Im simpy referring to your claims that the palestinians were twice offered their own nation. Im assuming that you meant they were made this offer by Israel as a solution to the problem with the occupied territories although id welcome clarification on what two occasions you were referring to.
(Original post by vienna95)
All were offered Israeli citizenship if they wished to remain on Israeli soil.
Ive had a quick glance through the relevant chapter in Israel:A history and i cant find any mention of this and i find it highly doubtful that Israel would be willing to have such a huge population of hostile arabs as citizens -unless they were only offered a lower class of citizenship to that available to Jews and thus were not afforded any democratic rights which would, after all, be hugely influential? Were they offered citizenship status equal to that of an European/American Jewish Immigrant?
(Original post by vienna95)
Jordan didnt want the Palestinians, Palestinians wanted their own state. Neither wanted Israel to exist. Israel was not going to concede land to a set of people that were ready to destroy it. They were ready to concede land if aggression ceased.
True. A great shame the violence was to flair up again as there were some genuine signs of progress and promise immediately following the 6 Day war and there were some very interesting plans made by Dayan et al.
(Original post by vienna95)
They were legitimately occupied and once the war ended, those countries were liberated. During the war, noone expected Germany to concede land. If Alsaciens rejected a state of their own, remained under the jurisdiction of the French and were then invaded by the Germans, who would expect Germany to recognise Alsace with the prospect of French and allied hostility?
Fair enough - I simply wanted to be sure i had your view on the issue correctly interpreted.
(Original post by vienna95)
That was misleading on my part. Israel would cease to exist as a state or be an occupied state. Palestinians can be neither.
How exactly does a state become a legitimate or recognised state in your eyes though? Should the palestinian militants become unusually successful and force the Israeli forces out of the occupied territories will they then have a state of their own? Considering such action would be similiar to those taken by the Zionists to gain Israeli sovereignty post WW2 would that be sufficient to form a state? Or would international recognition from the UN as was awarded to Israel be required?
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