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Vienna
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#281
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#281
(Original post by an Siarach)
So using your justification it would be perfectly legitimate for the nations which neighboured the former Yugoslavia/Chzechoslovakia (or any other example) to annex parts of those nations which, seeing as they were falling apart into new and distinct nations, would not be able to dispute the theft of land.
If those nations were at war and subsequently remained hostile, yes.

Again youre rather bodyswerving past the question which does not concern Jordan or Egypt or whoever else but purely the inhabitants of the lands Israel occupied. Had Israel left the occupied territories you would have no Hamas, no Intifada etc
No, they exist because Israel exists. This was also the position of most of the Arab world until they realised that it was damaging the prospect of a Palestinian state.

Im simpy referring to your claims that the palestinians were twice offered their own nation. Im assuming that you meant they were made this offer by Israel as a solution to the problem with the occupied territories although id welcome clarification on what two occasions you were referring to.
In 1948 and 1999.

Ive had a quick glance through the relevant chapter in Israel:A history and i cant find any mention of this and i find it highly doubtful that Israel would be willing to have such a huge population of hostile arabs as citizens -unless they were only offered a lower class of citizenship to that available to Jews and thus were not afforded any democratic rights which would, after all, be hugely influential? Were they offered citizenship status equal to that of an European/American Jewish Immigrant?
When Israel was established it offered everyone settled on that land Israeli citizenship, to the best of my knowledge. Citizenship of Israel is irrespective of your ethnic or religious background.

How exactly does a state become a legitimate or recognised state in your eyes though? Should the palestinian militants become unusually successful and force the Israeli forces out of the occupied territories will they then have a state of their own? Considering such action would be similiar to those taken by the Zionists to gain Israeli sovereignty post WW2 would that be sufficient to form a state? Or would international recognition from the UN as was awarded to Israel be required?
It would become legitimate as soon as it has political control over land clearly defined by and recognised by the majority of its population, and one would hope the international community. It would also have to accept or provide for political obligations to co exist with its neighbours.
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an Siarach
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#282
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#282
(Original post by vienna95)
No, they exist because Israel exists. This was also the position of most of the Arab world until they realised that it was damaging the prospect of a Palestinian state.
Well thats not untrue but its misleading to say that they exist as they are purely because Israel exists. Had Israel remained within its own borders rather than subjugating hostile peoples i dont see how you can seriously suggest the level of hostility and suffering would have been the same.
(Original post by vienna95)
In 1948 and 1999.
Im pretty sure the decision in 1948 had very little to do with the palestinian people - just as the sale of land to Israel in previous years had nothing to do with the inhabitants of those lands and everything to do with absentee landlords in other arab nations - and had an acceptable offer been made in 1999 (fully independant, fully autonomous) i dont doubt it would have been accepted. Its a bit naive to expect a people as bitter and hate filled as the palestinians to accept a form of 'state' which would see Israelis maintain sovereignty over them.
(Original post by vienna95)
When Israel was established it offered everyone settled on that land Israeli citizenship, to the best of my knowledge. Citizenship of Israel is irrespective of your ethnic or religious background.
When i have time il have a proper look at the relevant chapters but i really do find that highly doubtful. Putting aside the previously mentioned reasons for its unlikelyhood there have also been well documented issues regarding white american/european jewish racism against darker skinned jews such as those from Ethiopia etc so i dont expect a sudden bout of egalitarianism against a former, and still entirely hostile people who would have a tremendous impact upon the state if provided with full citizenship and democratic rights (which is what i assume you mean by citizenship).
(Original post by vienna95)
It would become legitimate as soon as it has political control over land clearly defined by and recognised by the majority of its population, and one would hope the international community. It would also have to accept or provide for political obligations to co exist with its neighbours.
Fair enough.
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Vienna
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#283
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#283
(Original post by an Siarach)
Well thats not untrue but its misleading to say that they exist as they are purely because Israel exists. Had Israel remained within its own borders rather than subjugating hostile peoples i dont see how you can seriously suggest the level of hostility and suffering would have been the same.
The level of hostility from Hamas would have existed. Whether or not they would have the sympathy of the UN, the EU and the international left is another thing. It would have been alot less aggressive and hostile to let Hitler waltz across Europe, but security demanded that hostility from people that want to wipe you out should not be appeased. Had Israel retreated under aggression from Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Islamic militants, we could be looking at a totally different Israel today.

Im pretty sure the decision in 1948 had very little to do with the palestinian people - just as the sale of land to Israel in previous years had nothing to do with the inhabitants of those lands and everything to do with absentee landlords in other arab nations
The UN divided the land and offered the Palestinians a state. They even accepted this in part and at one time declared themselves a nation. Land onto which Israel was founded, was settled by a majority of Jews who had bought the land from the Arabs. Arabs actually welcomed the Jews who had brought prosperity to the region.

and had an acceptable offer been made in 1999 (fully independant, fully autonomous) i dont doubt it would have been accepted. Its a bit naive to expect a people as bitter and hate filled as the palestinians to accept a form of 'state' which would see Israelis maintain sovereignty over them.
The state was offered by Barak and Clinton. It would have meant they would have received at least 97% of the land, the remaining 3% in Jerusalem would have been termed as an 'international' city, as it was disputed by both the Israelis and Palestinians.

When i have time il have a proper look at the relevant chapters but i really do find that highly doubtful. Putting aside the previously mentioned reasons for its unlikelyhood there have also been well documented issues regarding white american/european jewish racism against darker skinned jews such as those from Ethiopia etc so i dont expect a sudden bout of egalitarianism against a former, and still entirely hostile people who would have a tremendous impact upon the state if provided with full citizenship and democratic rights (which is what i assume you mean by citizenship).
There are Arab, Christian and Jewish Israelis, all equal. Many arabs that had settled on land that became Israel were bullied by the rest of the Arab Nation. They had to join their "brothers" against the "Nakhba".
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#284
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#284
Would that pathetic little weed who keeps neg repping me come on the thread and actually show themself. By neg repping me you look completely pathetic as you are not showing who you are so that i can explain what i mean........

The Palestinians are fighting because of religion. Although they both want the holy city of Bethlehem, Israel are fighting more because of Politics. Afterall, there is more evidence for politics than religion. Religion was made up to help human-beings not feel alone. What is the point in fighting over something that is not real and can hurt people? That is the reason i said i hope all Palestinian suicide bombers kill themselves (not injuring others) and realise there is no such God, to whom they wasted they pathetic little lives over!

Yes some people believe we still havent landed on the moon, but there is evidence to support this. Religion just seems to conjuer up "magic" to cover the weaknesses in its story. Such weaknesses include the body of christ dissappearing in the tomb after he died.

If there was a god brought down to earth (who was mortal) why was he sent at such a time? Surely if ever we needed a God then he would have been sent to us at this period of time.........
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#285
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#285
(Original post by Howard)
Is the Pope Catholic?
Nice one! But isnt he Roman Catholic hehe?
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