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Vienna
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Repentance)
Hamas are not a terrorist group...they are merely people who are fighting for their land and peace...it is easy for us to call them a terrorist group but we are not in their situation...we are not the ones forced into leaving our land...
Can you explain this in regard to land and peace?

"The goal of the Islamic Resistance Movement is to implement Allah's promise, whatever time that may take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until the Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them), until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! Oh Abdullah!, there is a Jew behind me, come on and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
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MC
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#42
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#42
(Original post by vienna95)
"Whether or not..."
You did not make a choice. There is doubt in your mind. This doubt is founded upon the acknowledgement of the illigitimacy of the Israeli government. I tapped into this. I will from this moment forth believe, whether you admit it or not, that you vilify the actions of the Israeli government.

(Original post by vienna95)
Do the military actions of the Israeli army determine whether Hamas' actions are terrorism or not?
I'm an open minded guy, so lets think of it like this: If you acknowledge that the Israeli government carries out terrorist activities and is fundamentally a terrorist organisation, I will ackowledge that Hamas *may* have carried out terrorists acts.

(Original post by vienna95)
Do you thus disagree with the UN, the EU and the US on this matter of definition?
Yes.
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EI_123
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#43
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#43
Kach, Kahane Chai, Haganah, Irgun, Stern these were peace warriors and Hamas is a terrorist group. :rolleyes:
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shadowkin
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#44
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#44
vienna...didn't you say you were atheist? well I was wondering what you thought about the founding of Isreal. I mean it was based on the torah...surely you don't believe in that? So is Isreal a viable state?
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Howard
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#45
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#45
(Original post by shadowkin)
Well the concept hasn't been defined by international law. This causes problems to teh 'war on terror.' My understanding is that is opinion based. So trying to determine who is a terrorist or not is, in effect pointless. It is a word that is thrown in the mix with 'Islamic' or 'muslim' never with any other religous group. To me it is being used to create fear in the minds of stupid people.
"Terrorism" is not a concept. It's a word. Until the international community "legally defines" it how about trying a dictionary? :rolleyes:

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons"
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shadowkin
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Howard)
"Terrorism" is not a concept. It's a word. Until the international community "legally defines" it how about trying a dictionary?
Oh dear. Can't you handle the thought that terrorism might be a concept?
Well quite frankly it is. Just as death is a concept as well as a word.
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shadowkin
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#47
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#47
(Original post by Howard)
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons"
i don't think you understand what I'm trying to say.
That definition doesn't take into account how it is being used by the media, governments or in teh 'war on terror'. What about CONNOTATIONS and ASSOCIATIONS not just definitions.
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Howard
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#48
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#48
(Original post by shadowkin)
Oh dear. Can't you handle the thought that terrorism might be a concept?
Well quite frankly it is. Just as death is a concept as well as a word.
Well at least I had a stab at defining it. You couldn't even be bothered, preferring instead to hide behind some fluid concepts that "international law" hasn't got around to defining. I suppose using a dictionary is beyond your massive intellect.
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Saagar
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#49
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#49
Both the Hamas and the Israeli Government/IDF are using "terror" tactics to win. They are both fighting for a wrong cause. Once again the root of the problem is down to religion and there is no foreseeable solution.
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shadowkin
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Howard)
Well at least I had a stab at defining it. You couldn't even be bothered, preferring instead to hide behind some fluid concepts that "international law" hasn't got around to defining. I suppose using a dictionary is beyond your massive intellect.
Re-read my last post.
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Vienna
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#51
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#51
(Original post by shadowkin)
Well the concept hasn't been defined by international law. This causes problems to teh 'war on terror.' My understanding is that is opinion based. So trying to determine who is a terrorist or not is, in effect pointless.
Well, you have an opinion on what is or isnt terrorism, what is it?

As an example, do you agree with this academic consensus definition as proposed by the UNODC,
"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought"

It is a word that is thrown in the mix with 'Islamic' or 'muslim' never with any other religous group. To me it is being used to create fear in the minds of stupid people.
Do you believe Islamic terrorism exists? Or that extremist actions on the part of Muslims is not terrorism or that terrorism has never been defined in a sense other than relating to Islamic extremism?
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Vienna
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#52
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#52
(Original post by Mad Caddie)
You did not make a choice.
Correct, which render your previous comment dead. Whatsmore, the lack of choice was key to the point.


I'm an open minded guy, so lets think of it like this: If you acknowledge that the Israeli government carries out terrorist activities and is fundamentally a terrorist organisation, I will ackowledge that Hamas *may* have carried out terrorists acts.
Do the military actions of the Israeli army determine whether Hamas' actions are terrorism or not?
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Vienna
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#53
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#53
(Original post by shadowkin)
vienna...didn't you say you were atheist? well I was wondering what you thought about the founding of Isreal. I mean it was based on the torah...surely you don't believe in that? So is Isreal a viable state?
The State of Israel is a legitimate nation state.
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Vienna
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#54
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#54
(Original post by Saagar)
Both the Hamas and the Israeli Government/IDF are using "terror" tactics to win.
Do you recognise a difference between suicide bombers and casualties of military operations?

They are both fighting for a wrong cause.
Israel is fighting to defend its people and the right to exist. Do you believe this is the wrong cause? If you dont believe this is the cause of Israel, feel free to provide your own.

Once again the root of the problem is down to religion and there is no foreseeable solution.
The solution is for Palestinians to have a recognised nation state.
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Saagar
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#55
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#55
(Original post by vienna95)
The State of Israel is a legitimate nation state.
If Jewish Palestine agreed to the UN resolution and Arab palestine didn't that means the UN made the flaw by allowing it to go ahead. Therefore it can only be considered the UN's fault for lack of judgement.
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shadowkin
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#56
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#56
(Original post by vienna95)
Well, you have an opinion on what is or isnt terrorism, what is it?
terrorism can be witnessed through the actions by the American army. If i was to tell you, i would be giving you a definition similar to Howards. I think that is pointless.
My opinion is that terrorism is easily replacable with many other words. It is used for fear etc and isn't useful at all.
And what is your opinon on this then seeing as you haven't answered it yet:


(Original post by shadowkin)
vienna...didn't you say you were atheist? well I was wondering what you thought about the founding of Isreal. I mean it was based on the torah...surely you don't believe in that? So is Isreal a viable state?
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EI_123
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#57
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#57
(Original post by vienna95)
Do you recognise a difference between suicide bombers and casualties of military operations?
Casualties like this one?

http://www.palestina.int.ar/Intifada/2000/docs/27.htm
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shadowkin
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#58
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#58
oh sorry. You have answered it. ok then
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Vienna
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#59
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#59
(Original post by shadowkin)
terrorism can be witnessed through the actions by the American army. If i was to tell you, i would be giving you a definition similar to Howards. I think that is pointless.
My opinion is that terrorism is easily replacable with many other words. It is used for fear etc and isn't useful at all.
Would you say that a definition would be required if we wish to make a decision as to whether something is terrorist or not?
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Vienna
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#60
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#60
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Casualties like this one?

http://www.palestina.int.ar/Intifada/2000/docs/27.htm
First, Id ask how that was filmed.
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