Is it worth everyone to go to university? Watch

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horrorboy
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#21
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(Original post by Phil23)
Sorry if this sounds prejudice, but does anyone apart from me think that not everyone should go to university? I mean what is the point of going to a crap university which is like really low in teh tables, and accepts people with E's, D's and C's?

I mean, there are so many grads, with goo degrees coming out of good unis - what is the point of people who are simply unable, or less able, to go to uni??? The more able people who actually get somethign out of uni have to suffer, because we have to pay more tuition fees, and later on £3000 per year in fees!!! Isn't it a waste of money to go to such an institution as Hertfordshire or whatever to study media studies or whatever?

I mean, emplyment does not come easy, and people with degrees from **** unis find it harder to get a job anyway - so do they get anything out of uni, at the expense of increased fees for those who do gain something.

Hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but we need members in all sects of society. Where will we get our carpenters, gardeners,ane people in other menial jobs from.

I see this government target of 50% of people going to uni as pointless, frankly - its not a sustainable strategy in the UK's longterm intersts,

any views?

Phil
im doing psychology at bolton with d's and e's At the end of the day though the university you go to doesn't really matter. the psychology department at bolton has 24/24 inspection score, dont know how
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AT82
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(Original post by horrorboy)
im doing psychology at bolton with d's and e's At the end of the day though the university you go to doesn't really matter. the psychology department at bolton has 24/24 inspection score, dont know how
Wouldn't it be ironic if you ended up with a better job than the thread starter.
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Vladek
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#23
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I got shockingly bad a-level results, I went to what you'd probably term as a lesser University, got my degree and I'm now earning a lot of money in a very good Graduate Scheme. Should I of been denied the chance to go Uni?

You could get straight A's at GCSEs, A-levels and then get a 1st at degree level and still not get a job becouse you have no personality and no interests other than getting good grades, maybe once you've experienced the real world phil23 you can start to debate who should and who shouldn't be allowed to go to university.

I think this post is more about you wanting to feel big becouse you're on target for getting A and B, and thats somehow not enough so you have to put people down who get anything less.

Its a simple case of arogance AT.
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AT82
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(Original post by Vladek)
I got shockingly bad a-level results, I went to what you'd probably term as a lesser University, got my degree and I'm now earning a lot of money in a very good Graduate Scheme. Should I of been denied the chance to go Uni?

You could get straight A's at GCSEs, A-levels and then get a 1st at degree level and still not get a job becouse you have no personality and no interests other than getting good grades, maybe once you've experienced the real world phil23 you can start to debate who should and who shouldn't be allowed to go to university.

I think this post is more about you wanting to feel big becouse you're on target for getting A and B, and thats somehow not enough so you have to put people down who get anything less.

Its a simple case of arogance AT.

Are you saying I am arrogant? :confused:
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Vladek
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Are you saying I am arrogant? :confused:
Maybe a little slow but not arrogant No I'm saying the original poster perhaps is.
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#26
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Everybody has the right to university education providing they meet a certain amount of conditions and that they can proove that the course will benefit them. People don't have the right to just walk into HE without any suitable qualifications or experience.

very right! Why should the tax payer, have to pay all that money, and why should students have to pay £3000 per year, so to fund the governmensts HE plans - i mean, there is no point in everyone going to university. It will give people false hopes that they can do whatever they want if they go to university, which is false. Why don't people wake up to the realities of how the world works. I mean, there just isn't a market for 50% of the uks population to be web designers or accountants; we need to educate people sustainable in line with what they are capable of. No offence put i don't see the point of wasting thousands of pounds educating an E grade A-level student the art of account keeping. There are far too many people with A's and B's going into these fields, and from what i see, there is very limited scope for people coming out of 'crap' unis, to do grad jobs - there are far too many smart people to go around.

Anyone agree?
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(Original post by danmint)
In theory, if more people are going to uni, the population on average will earn more, and therefore pay more tax. This will improve the nation as a whole, and will also make companies more specialed. So denying education is a very negative decision both on moral and economic grounds.
don't know where you heard of this theory from, but from little economic theory that i do know, i know for a fact that everyone going onto higher education is NOT sustainable, as i have mentioned on previous posts. I mean, if more people go uni, and more people become smart as you say, wouldn't you expect the market for certain jobs to become so saturated taht the competition will increase, as employers will have more people to choose between. And wouldn't this lead to a downward spiral in peoples wages for these jobs etc.

I learnt about it a few months ago - sort of like the malthus model , but the downward spiral being related to the decline of the economy due to a saturaated market, and not increase in population.
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AT82
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(Original post by Phil23)
very right! Why should the tax payer, have to pay all that money, and why should students have to pay £3000 per year, so to fund the governmensts HE plans - i mean, there is no point in everyone going to university. It will give people false hopes that they can do whatever they want if they go to university, which is false. Why don't people wake up to the realities of how the world works. I mean, there just isn't a market for 50% of the uks population to be web designers or accountants; we need to educate people sustainable in line with what they are capable of. No offence put i don't see the point of wasting thousands of pounds educating an E grade A-level student the art of account keeping. There are far too many people with A's and B's going into these fields, and from what i see, there is very limited scope for people coming out of 'crap' unis, to do grad jobs - there are far too many smart people to go around.

Anyone agree?
But EE students can still make very good university students though, yes is probably too many students, but a lot of these students will also have crap personalities and crap degree grades.

Also HE improves peoples personal qualities a lot, its not all about bits of paper.

As soon as you get into university you will realise A levels count for nothing, raw intelligence and hard work is all that matters. When you start looking for a job then A levels become important again in some cases.
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Muse
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
But EE students can still make very good university students though,
what do you base that on? i think you'll find that EE students are found few and far between in the 2.1/1st degree classification territory. on the few studies that have taken place with regards how A-level grades predict university success, even though they're not the best indicator, they do give an general idea of how a student will perform (especially if you consider the two extremes, AAA and EE).

of course, you may know somebody with EE that has worked hard and is doing well in their degree - but this doesn't mean to say this happens in the majority of cases.

i would say everyone has the right to enter HE in some form, but university should still require decent qualifications (this doesn't mean just As, Bs and Cs) as it's such an expense to put students through.

(Original post by amazingtrade)
yes is probably too many students, but a lot of these students will also have crap personalities and crap degree grades.
are you trying to suggest there isn't a mass of qualified, suitably employable graduates?

(Original post by amazingtrade)
Also HE improves peoples personal qualities a lot, its not all about bits of paper.
HE excluding university, yes.

(Original post by amazingtrade)
As soon as you get into university you will realise A levels count for nothing
with degree courses which require substantial pre-degree knowledge (such as maths, medicine, chemistry etc.) it's important that the topics covered at A-Level have been grasped and understood properly. Otherwise you'd have a hell of a lot of catching up to do to reach the standard required by the university. Does EE imply a thorough knowledge of A2 concepts that will be built upon in the first year of an otherwise hectic course?
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AT82
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what do you base that on? i think you'll find that EE students are found few and far between in the 2.1/1st degree classification territory. on the few studies that have taken place with regards how A-level grades predict university success, even though they're not the best indicator, they do give an general idea of how a student will perform (especially if you consider the two extremes, AAA and EE).

Take computing for example if you have worked as a programmer for 5 years and got a grade E at A level you are likely to know more than an A grade fresh A level student.

of course, you may know somebody with EE that has worked hard and is doing well in their degree - but this doesn't mean to say this happens in the majority of cases.


No but it does happen a lot. The proboem with peoples like Phill's comments is that they exlude people who will do great at university.


i would say everyone has the right to enter HE in some form, but university should still require decent qualifications (this doesn't mean just As, Bs and Cs) as it's such an expense to put students through.

I agree, but the qualifications can be experience as well. EE and no experience in the related field then I would probably suggest that person should not go to university until they have the experience/qualifications


are you trying to suggest there isn't a mass of qualified, suitably employable graduates?

There is a mass, but its still only 25% of the UK population. The main mass is within the under 30s.

HE excluding university, yes.



with degree courses which require substantial pre-degree knowledge (such as maths, medicine, chemistry etc.) it's important that the topics covered at A-Level have been grasped and understood properly. Otherwise you'd have a hell of a lot of catching up to do to reach the standard required by the university. Does EE imply a thorough knowledge of A2 concepts that will be built upon in the first year of an otherwise hectic course?

Yes I agree, but as I said above you can get this knowledge from other things other than just A levels.

I think what I am saying is to go to university you either need to have good suitable A levels (anything from C or above) or have fast experience and background knowledge you want to develop further with some evidence of acedemic ability (i.e very good GCSEs or somthing).


I personaly would like to see a lot more mature students in university and less of the EEU 18 year olds going to have a three year party only to get a 3rd in Golf club bar work BA (non Hons).


Blimey you keep me busy!
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Muse
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Take computing for example if you have worked as a programmer for 5 years and got a grade E at A level you are likely to know more than an A grade fresh A level student.
yes, but you have to question the reasons for why an established computer programmer is planning to undertake an undergraduate degree. if they desperately want a BSc to further their career, there are plenty of access to HE or university foundation programmes around to give them an opportunity of university application aside from their generic EE A-Levels which wouldn't meet a lot of admissions criteria.

(Original post by amazingtrade)
No but it does happen a lot. The proboem with peoples like Phill's comments is that they exlude people who will do great at university.
A-Levels are one of the few (albeit statistically poor) indicators we have at the moment re: how well someone will do at university. If someone really thinks they can thrive in a university environment, there is nothing stopping them working hard for equivilant qualifications for entry.

(Original post by Amazingtrade)
I agree, but the qualifications can be experience as well. EE and no experience in the related field then I would probably suggest that person should not go to university until they have the experience/qualifications
I think we're veering away from the point here. Experience and qualifications are not synonymous with each other and I think the original comments were geared more towards school leavers with EE.

(Original post by Amazingtrade)
There is a mass, but its still only 25% of the UK population. The main mass is within the under 30s.
And what proportion of graduate-entry jobs are available for these people?

(Original post by Amazingtrade)
[Yes I agree, but as I said above you can get this knowledge from other things other than just A levels.


You can get knowledge from reading books, but does this prove an assessed standard of achievement?

(Original post by Amazingtrade)
[[I think what I am saying is to go to university you either need to have good suitable A levels (anything from C or above) or have fast experience and background knowledge you want to develop further with some evidence of acedemic ability (i.e very good GCSEs or somthing).
i disagree. experience is totally subjective in a system which has no time or inclination to check what you've said you know is correct. if someone wants to branch away from an established career or further it via a degree then they'll find it easy, using their experience, to gain some foundation-entry qualifications to enable them to meet admissions criteria.


(Original post by Amazingtrade)
I personaly would like to see a lot more mature students in university and less of the EEU 18 year olds going to have a three year party only to get a 3rd in Golf club bar work BA (non Hons).
coming from a course with a high proportion of mature students, i have to say they have a much stronger work ethic (understandably) than their 18 year old fellow students.
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AT82
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I still think that excluding people with EE is wrong. There is also a policital issue here. If we increased entry requirements of the bottom of the league universitiies such as TVU to a CC minimum then places like Oxbridge would have to increase their grades otherwise places like TVU could not complete.

I think what should happen is the government could reduce funding for universities with high failure rate, this way bad courses should be eased out and there will only be the better ones left. People will then have to work harder to get into university.

I just think the problem with A levels is they don't reflect peoples personal backgrounds. For a example a typical middle class student with an easy life should have no problems getting CCC unless they have medical conditions affecting their ability, however a poor person from a council estate will find it much harder to get CCC.

I am sure if I was from a rough council estate I would most certainly not be at university now. I think its this gap that really needs to be addressed, not EE students.So less of the middle class EE students.

On a side note I have higher grades than a lot of people in my course, and I do some times wonder how some people ever managed to get in, I do think some of these people should not have gone. However my best mate got turned down from my course with CC (but bad GCSEs, just 3 C'S) and I just think its a shame, the only offer he got was from Bolton and that knocked his confidence a bit. He decided not to bother.

Maybe these students who get EE and really want to go to university should have to somthing like an HND or foundation degree first, or maybe have special HE entry colleges to give people a second chance.

I do agree with you that too many unsuitable are going to university, I am just questioning how you determine a suitable student.

Sorry for the woffle, just got back from a gig and still slightly drunk.
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Muse
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I'm not really in the mood for more multi-quoting so I'll get back to you on that one
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kingslaw
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I dont think the 'less able' should be prevented from going to uni. I do however believe that less people should be going to university, and that more options should be advertised to young people about vocational courses and such.

Anyway, like I say, the number of places in higher education should be cut. However, instead of this having the effect of just making every university put up its grade requirements, I think universities should take into account a wider range of factors when admitting students. For example, showing a true dedication for the subject should count for a lot more than it does at the moment, where for many subjects if you fit the grade requirements, you automatically get an offer. So people getting relatively low grades will be joining those with better grades at the same universities on the merit that they are truly dedicated to the subject they are studying.
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(Original post by kingslaw)
I dont think the 'less able' should be prevented from going to uni. I do however believe that less people should be going to university, and that more options should be advertised to young people about vocational courses and such.

Anyway, like I say, the number of places in higher education should be cut. However, instead of this having the effect of just making every university put up its grade requirements, I think universities should take into account a wider range of factors when admitting students. For example, showing a true dedication for the subject should count for a lot more than it does at the moment, where for many subjects if you fit the grade requirements, you automatically get an offer. So people getting relatively low grades will be joining those with better grades at the same universities on the merit that they are truly dedicated to the subject they are studying.
I agree with you, I admit there is a problem its just grades is not the problem. Of course we all know that if universities put their grades up A levels will be made easier anyway so it will pointless.

Vocatonal training needs a lot of improvements, I have gone down that route myself and university is 1000% better in every way. I don't for one minute regret going to university and I think I have got so much out of it for various complex reasons. However not everybody gets much out of it.

It really annoys me when people look down on people like joiners or sparks, its actually very difficult to fit somthing like a window let alone do somthing like a staircase. I built my HIFI rack from sctrach and it was bloody difficult, it makes you realise just how much people in skilled trades are undervalued.

The problem with the building trade at the moment is it has a bit of a yobbish image which even my joiner mate openly admits and takes the mick out the dialy star readers he works with. He said out of all the apprecentices his firm takes on only 1 in 10 last more than 6 months because they are so thick or theiving scallies. The problem is much of the decent people are going to university instead of trades. He is 22 and he has more than £15k in his bank account.
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ChemistBoy
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I voted no, but really because I think we should differentiate more between what does and does not constitute a degree rather than just denying people the chance of higher education. Whilst I agree with the governments desire to encourage more people to remain in education I think that the broadness of the spectrum should not just be provided by universities as it is damaging more 'traditional' subjects, such as chemistry, which are vital for a progress in society. People should not be at university studying subjects such as Golf course management and Tourism as the sphere for true academic research in these fields is incredibly limited and that is how we should judge whether a subject deserves to be taught at a university.
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Flicker
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(Original post by Phil23)
Sorry if this sounds prejudice, but does anyone apart from me think that not everyone should go to university? I mean what is the point of going to a crap university which is like really low in teh tables, and accepts people with E's, D's and C's?

I mean, there are so many grads, with goo degrees coming out of good unis - what is the point of people who are simply unable, or less able, to go to uni??? The more able people who actually get somethign out of uni have to suffer, because we have to pay more tuition fees, and later on £3000 per year in fees!!! Isn't it a waste of money to go to such an institution as Hertfordshire or whatever to study media studies or whatever?

I mean, emplyment does not come easy, and people with degrees from **** unis find it harder to get a job anyway - so do they get anything out of uni, at the expense of increased fees for those who do gain something.

Hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but we need members in all sects of society. Where will we get our carpenters, gardeners,ane people in other menial jobs from.

I see this government target of 50% of people going to uni as pointless, frankly - its not a sustainable strategy in the UK's longterm intersts,

any views?

Phil
i've said it before but i repeat - my boyfriend has a C and an E at a level, yet is on track for a 1st in his degree. denying him a place would deny the work force of a very able graduate. some people have unfortunaet circumstances during sixth form (he was bullied very badly) and dont' reach their potential - at teh time he wasn't mature enough to know what he wanted to do and how to get it. after 2 years out and some work experience he's grown up and is getting more out of uni than he would haev done before - i suspect more than if he'd actually gone to lessons in sixth form and got the As and Bs he could have achieved.
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#38
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(Original post by allisandro)
i've said it before but i repeat - my boyfriend has a C and an E at a level, yet is on track for a 1st in his degree. denying him a place would deny the work force of a very able graduate. some people have unfortunaet circumstances during sixth form (he was bullied very badly) and dont' reach their potential - at teh time he wasn't mature enough to know what he wanted to do and how to get it. after 2 years out and some work experience he's grown up and is getting more out of uni than he would haev done before - i suspect more than if he'd actually gone to lessons in sixth form and got the As and Bs he could have achieved.
Interesting case; thanks for sharing that. I should have made my case clear. Basically i implied all those dossers that just come into school and make life a misery for everyone around them - you know, those people that shout at teachers, fight at breaktimes, and don't do any work. I feel that people like them shouldn't even have the opportunity to attend highschool, let alone uni. Its pointless, and self evident, yet you get people who's parents want them to go uni, just for the sake of a degree, and to cause more havoc there - i feel that this idea of making idiots, who ruin life for others, whould not be able to go to uni!

I'm speaking from experience, becasuse i've got some really bad nut-cases in my school, who do nothing but fight at breaktimes, shout at lessons, never do homework, and throw around ketchup at lunch times. I made the mistake of assuming that most less able people were like this, but abviously most aren't!

sorry

Phil
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#39
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man this is a heated topic. By the look of the polls, the views seem to be divided equally!!!

phil

CARRY ON VOTING
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Ariel4
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(Original post by Phil23)
Hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but we need members in all sects of society. Where will we get our carpenters, gardeners,ane people in other menial jobs from.
l
Dont worry, there will always be people who fail their GCSEs and drop out of school to do "menial work", which is actually stuff like road sweeping, cleaning, not carpentry and gardeneing, most of them tend to have qualifications in the area that they work in now.
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