Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ariel4)
    Dont worry, there will always be people who fail their GCSEs and drop out of school to do "menial work", which is actually stuff like road sweeping, cleaning, not carpentry and gardeneing, most of them tend to have qualifications in the area that they work in now.
    Yep carpetenry is surprisingly involved and hard, there is quite a lot of maths involved too, then you have understand the different properties of different types of materials, building laws. The hardest aspect of it though is the skill. I bet most the people who look down on people in the building trade don't even know what a DeWalt is
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I just went to uni cos I wana meet more girls and have fun, just so happens I can remember stuff easily.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Yep carpetenry is surprisingly involved and hard, there is quite a lot of maths involved too, then you have understand the different properties of different types of materials, building laws. The hardest aspect of it though is the skill. I bet most the people who look down on people in the building trade don't even know what a DeWalt is
    exactly! people that have gone to the top unis and a 1st and look down their noses at builders prob couldnt even do basic labouring work.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ariel4)
    exactly! people that have gone to the top unis and a 1st and look down their noses at builders prob couldnt even do basic labouring work.
    erm..yes, but doesn't this skills/knowledge specialisation thing work both ways?

    i can't imagine many people who hadn't gone to uni & studied a subject like mine knowing the significance of the Puf motif in an ortholog for Plasmodium falciparum..? not that they're missing out.. :rolleyes: :p:

    i don't think anyone in this thread has 'looked down upon people' who are skilled in less overtly academic ways or chose not to go to uni. & a few have argued that the mindset that you 'should' go is damaging when no doubt some people would be happier & more productive had they not.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Elles)
    erm..yes, but doesn't think work both ways?

    i can't imagine many people who hadn't gone to uni & studied a subject like mine knowing the significance of the Puf motif in an ortholog for Plasmodium falciparum..? :p:

    i don't think anyone in this thread has looked down upon people who are skilled in less overtly academic ways. & few have argued that the mindset that you 'should' go to university is damaging when no doubt some people would be happier & more productive had they not.
    But fitting a window is a much more useful skill to have. Thats the problem with our society it is too snobby, builders should not be looked down on but they often are. Also you tend to get a lot of idiots starting on building appecentices and they are proper scallies, however not many of them keep their jobs longs.

    The way we are heading is most people will have experience of higher education but many of those won't get a degree yet alone a 2:1 or above.

    I wonder what proportion of those who got 2:1 or higher got graduate level jobs within 6 months leaving?
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PQ)
    That was on the weakest link last night :eek: :eek:

    damn..i missed my chance of getting a quetsion right on a quiz show!

    how cruel fate is.. :hmpf:
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    But fitting a window is a much more useful skill to have. Thats the problem with our society it is too snobby, builders should not be looked down on but they often are.
    erm, not sure i'd go down this line of argument, to be honest.. :p:
    yes, fitting a window is useful, i can't deny - i like my building having windows. was i snobby towards builders? :eek: i merely pointed out that various groups have specific skills..

    but i think my going to university, studying medicine might also lead to some useful skill aquisition for society. plus potentially saving the lives of at least over a million african children annually, were i to fully get to grips with the aforementioned Puf etc.

    so, which is more important & 'useful'?

    (NB - rhetorical Q, i don't want you to answer..i don't think anyone can, it's a circular argument, but just perhaps concede that 'useful' isn't always as black & white as it may appear? )
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    From what it seems, people who didnt get good a-level grades and now go to a lowly ranked uni, are just going to argue that they should go to uni and it will be of benefit, when it most cases it will probably just be a waste of tax payers money and they will have wasted 3/4 yrs of their life.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by john williams)
    From what it seems, people who didnt get good a-level grades and now go to a lowly ranked uni, are just going to argue that they should go to uni and it will be of benefit, when it most cases it will probably just be a waste of tax payers money and they will have wasted 3/4 yrs of their life.
    *Applause* Well said
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    That simply isn't true though. As a more snior member I also think I have had more life experience such a statement is just pure arrogance. If you actually bother to look at university employment statistics you will see my point

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...246744,00.html
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...246650,00.html

    Several universiites in the bottom 10 (in terms of entry points) have starting salaries above the national average

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...246289,00.html

    You cannot generalise and say you will waste your time if you get bad A levels and go to a low ranked university.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Several universiites in the bottom 10 (in terms of entry points) have starting salaries above the national average
    Salaries aren't relevant, really. You can't judge the benefit someone gets from university purely on financial benefit. For a start, if a slightly higher starting salary is all you get from uni, then it's probably a complete waste of time. 3 years of student loan = c. £13,000 (and going to go up significantly); 3 years of non-graduate first job wages = c.£17,000 p/a x 3. So you're down £64,000 by going to uni. It would be a struggle to make up that difference during a working life.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    You need to some more reading about government policy because there was never any intention of making 50% of people go to university. Also you can't prejudice people against their grades.

    Also define a crap university.
    Are you sure? I remember interviewing a Labour MP and that's exactly what he said he wanted! At the moment I think something like 47% go.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Vladek)
    I got shockingly bad a-level results, I went to what you'd probably term as a lesser University, got my degree and I'm now earning a lot of money in a very good Graduate Scheme. Should I of been denied the chance to go Uni?

    You could get straight A's at GCSEs, A-levels and then get a 1st at degree level and still not get a job becouse you have no personality and no interests other than getting good grades, maybe once you've experienced the real world phil23 you can start to debate who should and who shouldn't be allowed to go to university.

    I think this post is more about you wanting to feel big becouse you're on target for getting A and B, and thats somehow not enough so you have to put people down who get anything less.

    Its a simple case of arogance AT.





    yeah ppl shouldnt **** off some peoples bad grades at college - got very poor results in terms of what im capable of getting...i didnt like college, was sick of education and had some personal problems in those two years which didnt help my concentration on focus. I got b,c,d,d (d being one of the general studies! haha)...now at top 8 uni overall (according to the trusted Times list), and my department rates third of its kind in the country - im close to getting a first....but i'm averaging 66-68 in my work and assessment. You should never write off ppl who do cráp (well in terms of fulfilling subjective potential - b,c,d,d will be very good for some people - those who have tried or have learning difficulties - these people should get jsut as much credit in such circumstances as those who get straight A grades....) because there could be reasons/explanations for it all and don't truly reflect the intelligence of someones mind.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by d750)
    Salaries aren't relevant, really. You can't judge the benefit someone gets from university purely on financial benefit. For a start, if a slightly higher starting salary is all you get from uni, then it's probably a complete waste of time. 3 years of student loan = c. £13,000 (and going to go up significantly); 3 years of non-graduate first job wages = c.£17,000 p/a x 3. So you're down £64,000 by going to uni. It would be a struggle to make up that difference during a working life.
    Yep. People seem to just rattle off the government statistics about how many people get more money in their lifetime by going to uni, but at the same time ignore how much it costs them to do it. They also can't prove it's because they went to uni. They might just have a better personality than a non-graduate and would have been offered the job regardless of whether or not they had a degree (obviously not talking about graduate jobs there).
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by wizard)
    yeah ppl shouldnt **** off some peoples bad grades at college - got very poor results in terms of what im capable of getting...i didnt like college, was sick of education and had some personal problems in those two years which didnt help my concentration on focus. I got b,c,d,d (d being one of the general studies! haha)...now at top 8 uni overall (according to the trusted Times list), and my department rates third of its kind in the country - im close to getting a first....but i'm averaging 66-68 in my work and assessment. You should never write off ppl who do cráp (well in terms of fulfilling subjective potential - b,c,d,d will be very good for some people - those who have tried or have learning difficulties - these people should get jsut as much credit in such circumstances as those who get straight A grades....) because there could be reasons/explanations for it all and don't truly reflect the intelligence of someones mind.
    i agree with that. i didnt do very well in exams, simply because i tend to go into an exam and go oh ****! ive forgotten everything, and write a load of crap. but in my classwork i often did well, getting As and Bs, so exams often dont reflect a persons true ability.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    Yep. People seem to just rattle off the government statistics about how many people get more money in their lifetime by going to uni, but at the same time ignore how much it costs them to do it.
    Well...

    average student leaves with around £13,000 debt?

    average graduate earns about £450,000 more in their lifetime than average non-graduate.

    Sorry, but those statistics do sort of speak for themselves!
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ariel4)
    i agree with that. i didnt do very well in exams, simply because i tend to go into an exam and go oh ****! ive forgotten everything, and write a load of crap. but in my classwork i often did well, getting As and Bs, so exams often dont reflect a persons true ability.
    The problem with that argument is that most courses at most unis are also assessed mainly, or at least partly, by exams, so if you can't handle the pressure and don't do very well, how will you do well at uni? *Not a personal attack on you, just generally speaking*
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ariel4)
    i agree with that. i didnt do very well in exams, simply because i tend to go into an exam and go oh ****! ive forgotten everything, and write a load of crap. but in my classwork i often did well, getting As and Bs, so exams often dont reflect a persons true ability.
    Exactly...and employers would probably rather employ someone one can work consistently over a long period of time (i.e. skills they will have learnt through coursework/classwork) and really research and understand something, than someone who can learn a load of facts, regurgitate them and then promptly forget them (as learnt in exams). Not quite sure what side of the argument I'm really on right now!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Angel_Cake)
    Are you sure? I remember interviewing a Labour MP and that's exactly what he said he wanted! At the moment I think something like 47% go.
    Not sure about that labour MP, but the governments target is 50% under 21s (under 20 somthing anyway) should have some kind of HE experience, thats very different from university. I can do HE qualifications from my local college for example.

    D750 have you tried to get a job though without any university qualificatioins? My mates very clever, gets amazing reports from his boses has been working for three years yet still earns under £11k a year, he is 21 now.

    He will find it very hard to get promoted because the graduates from the so called bad universities are all getting the higer £16k jobs, this means he is likely to still be on £11k in 10 years time where the TVU student may be on £20k. After 30 years that more than makes up £20k of student debt.

    As I said before yes there are bad students who are wasting their time at university, but please don't judge them by A level results as these bad students may well have 3 As.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Angel_Cake)
    Well...

    average student leaves with around £13,000 debt?

    average graduate earns about £450,000 more in their lifetime than average non-graduate.

    Sorry, but those statistics do sort of speak for themselves!
    Maybe so, but what we're debating is whether or not those with poor A-level grades who will only be accepted to a crap uni, usually to do a course that's not even respected by most employers, should bother. The majority of graduate will have good A-level grades and a respected degree from a good uni, so obviously they're likely to do better than someone without a degree, but I doubt someone with an Ordinary degree in golf course management from London Met will have better job prospectes than a non-graduate.
 
 
 
Poll
Black Friday: Yay or Nay?
Useful resources
Uni match

Applying to uni?

Our tool will help you find the perfect course

Articles:

Debate and current affairs guidelinesDebate and current affairs wiki

Quick link:

Educational debate unanswered threads

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.