Is it worth everyone to go to university? Watch

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LongGone
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#61
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#61
(Original post by amazingtrade)
Not sure about that labour MP, but the governments target is 50% under 21s (under 20 somthing anyway) should have some kind of HE experience, thats very different from university. I can do HE qualifications from my local college for example.
I think it's under 30 actually
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AT82
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#62
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(Original post by Angel_Cake)
Exactly...and employers would probably rather employ someone one can work consistently over a long period of time (i.e. skills they will have learnt through coursework/classwork) and really research and understand something, than someone who can learn a load of facts, regurgitate them and then promptly forget them (as learnt in exams). Not quite sure what side of the argument I'm really on right now!
I think that will certainly help me when I get a job, and pretty much all jobs in my £18-£20k all require degrees and usualy good ones too. I almost walked out of school when I was 14.

What annoys me with these threads is that its always usualy pre university students making comments like this, not many people on this thread have actually been to university yet. Also how many of you have actually tried to the alternative route?

I'm extremely proud of where I have got to and nobody who got millions of A's is going to take that away from me
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AT82
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#63
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(Original post by kellywood_5)
Maybe so, but what we're debating is whether or not those with poor A-level grades who will only be accepted to a crap uni, usually to do a course that's not even respected by most employers, should bother. The majority of graduate will have good A-level grades and a respected degree from a good uni, so obviously they're likely to do better than someone without a degree, but I doubt someone with an Ordinary degree in golf course management from London Met will have better job prospectes than a non-graduate.
You can't compare the two directly though. It depends on the none graduate, if that none graduate has good A levels then the graduate may have problems competing, but at the end of the day a degree is a degree and it opens up far more doors and thats not just jobs.
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AT82
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Frances)
I think it's under 30 actually
Yep that rings the bell now you mention it. Out of that 50% though I bet only 25% will actually get an honours degree or above.
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Ariel4
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#65
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
I think that will certainly help me when I get a job, and pretty much all jobs in my £18-£20k all require degrees and usualy good ones too. I almost walked out of school when I was 14.

What annoys me with these threads is that its always usualy pre university students making comments like this, not many people on this thread have actually been to university yet. Also how many of you have actually tried to the alternative route?

I'm extremely proud of where I have got to and nobody who got millions of A's is going to take that away from me
i am actually at uni now. and one of friends from home, who didnt go to uni, even though she got good a levels and got offered a place, is now working in telly sales, and hates it, just like she has hated all the jobs that she has had since leaving college. this is similar to a lot of my friends that have not been to uni. out of all my friends that did not go, i know one who enjoys his job. (also uni means you dont have to get a real job for another few years :p: )
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d750
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#66
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
D750 have you tried to get a job though without any university qualificatioins? My mates very clever, gets amazing reports from his boses has been working for three years yet still earns under £11k a year, he is 21 now.
Well, when I finally finish at uni I'll be looking at jobs of £9,500 (as a JRF) or of £21,000 as a junior lecturer, so it's possible to earn under £11,000 after extensive university study. (Or I could pack it all in and go off to work in the City :rolleyes: )
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AT82
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#67
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(Original post by d750)
Well, when I finally finish at uni I'll be looking at jobs of £9,500 (as a JRF) or of £21,000 as a junior lecturer, so it's possible to earn under £11,000 after extensive university study. (Or I could pack it all in and go off to work in the City :rolleyes: )
You have that choice though, he dosn't. You could easily earn £20k if you wanted to do.
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Sarky
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#68
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#68

I had extenuating circumstances so i guess i don't count, but i went from a high acheiver at school which was an inner London comp, to scraping the barrel with E's at A level. I was ill throughout sixth form, and i definately was able (when i was in good health) but i didn't fulfill my potential first time round. While i was on my gap year resitting my A levels i was studying an NVQ3 to train as a nursery nurse (didn't end up finishing it but thats besides the point). It was equivalent to 2 Alevels and could be used to enter uni and gain a degree, but the way the people i was on the course with saw themselves meant that they were never gonna go to uni. When they found out my GCSE grades they congratulated me and asked me why i was doing a vocational course when i was obviously a lot cleverer than them. I wasn't, i worked my arse off to get grades which people on TSR would call below average, but for me they were great. The idea that they could be valued as much as me for the qualification they were aiming for seemed alien to them. Vocational courses are still seen as lower level courses, even though the stuff i was studying was very indepth. The stigma attached to vocational courses means that many people in uni are only they because they feel they should be.
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AT82
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#69
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I started the NVQ Level 3 too but found it a bit patronisingly easy this was ICT though and its stuff I have been doing since 14 anyway.

I got 5 Cs and 4ds for GCSE, was in the top 10% of school leavers and got my picture in the paper for being a high achiever (its a different world from typical TSR)

I then went to college but hated the course, hated the located and just hated everything, however quite strangely we had to physics and I got second highest grade on that module which amazed me some what. I hated that college because we were treated like kids and I hated that as a 17 year old.

I then started a modern apprecentice building PCs. I was earning £60 a week working 9-6 5 days a week and was basicaly 1900's lancashire cotton mill conditions. This was when I started the NVQ Level 3

I quite soon after

I then went to college to AVCE and I enjoyed it, the lecturers didn't treat us like kids and I had foudn my place, somthing I was really good at, I also did Business Studies AS in the second year to improve my prospects. I got AB (AVCE) and a B in AS Business Studies which I am proud of both qualifications. At this point on having already tried the vocational route and still not having enough qualficiations for the mainly graduate IT jobs I thought going to university would be a good idea.

When I left school I never imagined in a million years I would end up going to university, yet alone actually end up doing quite well.

You can see why I get annoyed about these type of threads, because my early education was very poor but I got a second chance and I changed it.
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Muse
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#70
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
You can't compare the two directly though. It depends on the none graduate, if that none graduate has good A levels then the graduate may have problems competing, but at the end of the day a degree is a degree and it opens up far more doors and thats not just jobs.
Ever get the feeling this thread is going around in circles ?!
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AT82
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#71
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#71
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Ever get the feeling this thread is going around in circles ?!
Yep probably because there is no clear answer to this argument, the poll pretty much suggests that.
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Muse
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#72
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#72
(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yep probably because there is no clear answer to this argument, the poll pretty much suggests that.
I guess time will tell..

In the mean time I've no doubt you won't be hiding your opinions in further threads!
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WhatFreshHell?
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#73
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The reason alot of people get bad grades is because they're disadvantaged. What a lot of you are saying is elitist, and comes remarkably close to denying poor people education.

Think of the irony of what you're saying: you're denying stupid people education. How can that ever solve any problems, when we know that education is the silver bullet that lifts people out of poverty, halts disadvantagem etc, etc.

The whole point of the government's drive is not to ensure that we have the best educated cleaners in the world (although just because you're a cleaner doesn't mean your stupid and doesn't mean you don't deserve an education!!!), its to ensure that everyone who wants to go on with their education can - regardless of whether they go to cambridge or the worst fe college in the country.
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WhatFreshHell?
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#74
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Also, I forgot this point:
Just because lots of people have degrees doesn't suddenly devalue the currency. It doesn't work like money. Employers will become more aware of the differences between degrees and the complexities involved, on top of which more people have an education which can never, ever, ever be a bad thing!
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Elles
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#75
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(Original post by WhatFreshHell?)
The reason alot of people get bad grades is because they're disadvantaged. What a lot of you are saying is elitist, and comes remarkably close to denying poor people education.

Think of the irony of what you're saying: you're denying stupid people education. How can that ever solve any problems, when we know that education is the silver bullet that lifts people out of poverty, halts disadvantagem etc, etc.
i agree with your points.

but the poll is actually talking about 'less able' people & going to 'university', so i don't think the points are exactly relevant?

'less able' = may not be solely assessed on grades, which may be due to exenuating circumstances etc.

'education' = more than merely going to university - there are all sorts of ways of learning.

so i don't think saying less able people shouldn't go to university equates to denying education for disadvantaged people! :p:
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john williams
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#76
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#76
(Original post by WhatFreshHell?)
The reason alot of people get bad grades is because they're disadvantaged. What a lot of you are saying is elitist, and comes remarkably close to denying poor people education.

Think of the irony of what you're saying: you're denying stupid people education. How can that ever solve any problems, when we know that education is the silver bullet that lifts people out of poverty, halts disadvantagem etc, etc.
When it come's to a-levels (which unis 'generally' place the most importance on), in my experience there is no such thing as being clever or stupid. If you work hard you can/will get A's and B's and if you dont you wont. Saying some people are disadvantaged because they go to a rubbish school or are poor is not true. While this isnt the case for all subjects i.e. maths, the majority at a-level you can teach yourself (if you have bad teachers) and there is the EMA in place for poorer people to pay for revision books and materials.

Secondaly when you say about education lifting 'stupid people' out of poverty, this isnt always the case. Its these 'stupid people' (as u say) that wont go to top 10-20 unis and therefore will struggle to get a high paid job, when it may have been more worthwhile to save their money (they will have paid the and same amount in accom. etc) and start at the bottom.
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fishpaste
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#77
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(Original post by john williams)
Saying some people are disadvantaged because they go to a rubbish school or are poor is not true. While this isnt the case for all subjects i.e. maths, the majority at a-level you can teach yourself (if you have bad teachers) and there is the EMA in place for poorer people to pay for revision books and materials.
I think you underestimate the problems which can arise. I doubt you would be enthusiastic about learning if handing work in etc meant you getting beaten/cut up.
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AT82
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#78
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(Original post by fishpaste)
I think you underestimate the problems which can arise. I doubt you would be enthusiastic about learning if handing work in etc meant you getting beaten/cut up.
Exactly, also at my college the teachers themselves didn't even know what they were teaching half the time, we all failed Key Skills because the man dealing with it was hopeless, how can that be the students fault? At school I had to be exluded from PE simply because I was ending up in hospital far too often as a result of it.

It makes a huge difference having good teachers, they inspire you and motivate you, this makes you want to work harder. The sole reason for doing Geography at GCSE was because the teacher was excellent, he made me want to learn about the subject and he taught us much more than the slyabus, my exam grades may have suffered as a result because he wasn't teaching us how to pass the examl however I feel I have learn't far more this way despite only getting a C in the exam.

Just for example you live ina rough area go to a rough school your family are also rough, you can't go home to do work because your parents are always arguing, you can't go to the library becuase its been closed down how are you supposed to work in these conditions?

This is one of the reasons innercity areas have low attainment.
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john williams
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#79
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(Original post by fishpaste)
I think you underestimate the problems which can arise. I doubt you would be enthusiastic about learning if handing work in etc meant you getting beaten/cut up.
Extreme cases like that will be by far be small and in general problems such as poor teachers and lack of facilities will be the main causes.
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Jump
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#80
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#80
(Original post by john williams)
Extreme cases like that will be by far be small and in general problems such as poor teachers and lack of facilities will be the main causes.
The fact remains that although everyone could get AAA+ if they put in 100%, it is unlikely that anyone does put in 100% and why should they when others are putting in half the effort and still getting top grades because good teaching, facilities and conditions undoubtly make it easier.
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