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    (Original post by jumpunderaboat)
    The fact remains that although everyone could get AAA+ if they put in 100%, it is unlikely that anyone does put in 100% and why should they when others are putting in half the effort and still getting top grades because good teaching, facilities and conditions undoubtly make it easier.
    Yep like many things life its all down to luck, where you were born and how rich you're family is which is not fair. I am fortunative to have intiilegent parents which has made it easier for me to do well compared to somebody born with so not so bright parents.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Yep like many things life its all down to luck, where you were born and how rich you're family is which is not fair. I am fortunative to have intiilegent parents which has made it easier for me to do well compared to somebody born with so not so bright parents.
    Totally agree, admittedly sometimes I regret not going to a private school as my grades would have, almost certainly been alot better. However I also see that I have had alot easier circumstances than many other people and I think my state education has actually made me a better person in many non-academic ways.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Yep like many things life its all down to luck, where you were born and how rich you're family is which is not fair. I am fortunative to have intiilegent parents which has made it easier for me to do well compared to somebody born with so not so bright parents.
    I dont think having bright parents has that much influence on your grades and how well you do, but maybe in the sense of them pushing you and taking a interest in your education. Also it depends on what you class as 'doing well'...as you might believe you have done well, but in general you havent.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Most major studies that have been done have found that the attitude of parents towards education are FAR FAR more influential on a childs chances of academic success than any other factor (money, school type, IQ, hair colour etc etc).
    Exactly how is that if you live in a destached house in Hampshire or some where posh you have somthing like 60-70% chances of going to university, where as if you're from Knowsley you have more like 15%?

    Envronmental factors are the only logical explanation.
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    [QUOTE=PQ]Most major studies that have been done have found that the attitude of parents towards education are FAR FAR more influential on a childs chances of academic success than any other factor (money, school type, IQ, hair colour etc etc).[/QUOTE]

    But as you know, all studies are flawed...I guess having a combination of them is ideal.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Most major studies that have been done have found that the attitude of parents towards education are FAR FAR more influential on a childs chances of academic success than any other factor (money, school type, IQ, hair colour etc etc).
    Yeh i wasnt disputing that but simply how intelligent they are doesnt, plus what school you go to and area you live in will ultimately be influenced by your parents interest in your education.
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    And you can't really blame people for that, its not my fault I wasn't born in a detached house in Hampshire, its also not my fault I wasn't born in a council flat in Moss Side. Just had a very ordinaly lower middle england upbringing, we had our holidays, old cars, decent neighbours, bought up with books etc so it makes a big difference.

    What strange though is my grandparents live in a council house (they now own it) its a 3 bed quasi and they had 5 kids, all of them had to bought up in the same house, one of them went to university and is now a chief excutive of a major UK company, another one is a personal manager, the other one married a rich man, another become a policeman and my mum became a medical secratary. So all of them got decent jobs despite living in hard conditions.

    However my gradand was a purchasing manager while my grandma became a manager of an old peoples home once her kids had moved on. I think it is this positive attitude that made all my aunties and uncles do well. The only reason they lived in a council house because thats what you used to in those days, they just never got round to buying a house.

    What has happened now is more and more decent people are moving out of these estates so its left with the rougher lot.

    To a twist of this story, my mums sister had 6 children, they live in a huge mansion in posh chehsire, they had the brand new BMW limos etc, so far only one of them has gone to university and he's doing that part time, the other is considering going to university but the other four have no interest in going at all.

    The reason? Although they have money none of them really believe in education, they have the Richard Branson school of thought they don't really understand university and whats its about, where as my parents do.

    Sorry for writing yet another essay. I could make this thread into a dissertation.
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    I remember being teased for saying i enjoyed school and actually wanted to learn. I used to read stuff in my own time at home just out of interest. I was lucky, we lived on an estate in Peckham for the first few years but when i went to secondary school my mum sent me to a school in Westminster because she knew i would get a better education. By Westminster standards it wasn't that great, but compared to where i live it was a lot better. Kids in my area didnt' take much interest in school, but my mum did and i think for me thats what made the difference.
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    I personally think that EVERYBODY who wants to (for any particular reason) go to UNI should have the oportunity to make it true...
    here in Japan even buss drivers have HE..
    on the other hand nobody should be forced to go Uni if he/she doesn't want to
    and there are plenty of ppl who rather prefer physical to intelectuall work so there is no reason for being worried that the country will lack toillet cleaners and mine workers
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    I think that if everyone starts going to uni than people will start having high expectations. Who would take the 'low' jobs?
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    (Original post by Cellardore)
    I think that if everyone starts going to uni than people will start having high expectations. Who would take the 'low' jobs?
    well, you see...but its impossible that everybody would go to university..there are always ppl who r just not interessed in HE...
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    People who go to uni want to succeed and learn more stuff for the workplace. They also might want their standard to be higher than before.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    And you can't really blame people for that, its not my fault I wasn't born in a detached house in Hampshire, its also not my fault I wasn't born in a council flat in Moss Side. Just had a very ordinaly lower middle england upbringing, we had our holidays, old cars, decent neighbours, bought up with books etc so it makes a big difference.
    I don't know what point you are trying to make saying that. I'm from a disadvantaged background, and my parents are poor, and i'm from a **** comprehensive school, in the sunurbs of london. Also i'm claiming EMA etc, nad my parents earn < 20 k together!

    The point i must make is that money has little significance to whom you are. Life is what you make it, and what path you choose. I was brought up around dossers and drug dealers in my town, but i didn't want to be like them, so i made my own future based upon the traditional values of hard work.

    Of course rich people are more likely to have smarter kids, cos they send them to private schools where teachers are better and stuff. But everyone, and i mean everyone controls their lives - your life is what you make it to be! If you work hard, you can achieve what people in good schools do, reagardless of wealth or background. The problem arises in the link between background and the habits in thier areas. People are less likely to stay in education when they are seeing drug dealers anmd crime in their neighnbourhoods. The influence of elders,a nd locals, influences how someone is brought up, and i believe that is why there is such a small proportion of high achievers in crap areas.

    Phil23
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    (Original post by Phil23)
    I don't know what point you are trying to make saying that. I'm from a disadvantaged background, and my parents are poor, and i'm from a **** comprehensive school, in the sunurbs of london. Also i'm claiming EMA etc, nad my parents earn < 20 k together!

    The point i must make is that money has little significance to whom you are. Life is what you make it, and what path you choose. I was brought up around dossers and drug dealers in my town, but i didn't want to be like them, so i made my own future based upon the traditional values of hard work.

    Of course rich people are more likely to have smarter kids, cos they send them to private schools where teachers are better and stuff. But everyone, and i mean everyone controls their lives - your life is what you make it to be! If you work hard, you can achieve what people in good schools do, reagardless of wealth or background. The problem arises in the link between background and the habits in thier areas. People are less likely to stay in education when they are seeing drug dealers anmd crime in their neighnbourhoods. The influence of elders,a nd locals, influences how someone is brought up, and i believe that is why there is such a small proportion of high achievers in crap areas.

    Phil23
    But maybe you just have intelligent parents who happen t live in a poor area like my grandparents?
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    One can be clever for two reasons:
    1) born with it, has the genes
    2) hardworking

    amazingtrade, u seem to believe in the first and totally neglect the second. I must say hardworking does not ALWAYS bring to high intelligence, but it certainly has its large effects, especially if someone is very keen to explore, challenge and learn new things regardless of their base knowledge.
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    (Original post by cktlee1)
    One can be clever for two reasons:
    1) born with it, has the genes
    2) hardworking

    amazingtrade, u seem to believe in the first and totally neglect the second. I must say hardworking does not ALWAYS bring to high intelligence, but it certainly has its large effects, especially if someone is very keen to explore, challenge and learn new things regardless of their base knowledge.
    The problem is if you poor you work hard, but that hard work is often spent in a factory earning very little money. Some people don't have the money or to spend time at home studying, it just isn't an option for some people. A lot of people here don't know the true meaning of poor, there is less well off and there is poor.

    It is a very complicated issue that is not black and white and it does not have any direct answers.
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    I just wanted to say something quickly and apologise loads if a similar post has already been created but I dind't have time to post through 5 pages worth of messages! I read the first post though

    I went to a state primary school and was lucky enough to get accepted into a private secondary school in South London when I was 11. My parents were never academically gifted, leaving school with a handful of o-levels between them. They have worked their socks off to ensure that my brother and I got a good education. The only reason I got into a private school was because I got an assisted place and not because my parents had plenty of money and could pay. I spent 6 years of my life trying to overcome the stigma of going to a private school, people automatically assuming that I was rich, had 5 houses and half a dozen cars. The reverse is opposite, my parents dont even own their house, until recently we have always had cars that have been 2nd hand or more and until I was 14 I never had a foreign holiday because my parents just could not afford it. I did well in my GCSE's but flunked my a-levels only getting C's and D's and as a result never managed to get into my first choice university.

    In the end I went to another university doing a similar course but going by the first post - assuming I have understood correctly, I shouldn't have been accepted due to my "poor" grades but I pulled my socks up and worked my arse off and as a result came out with a first class degree, only one of 10 people in my year that did so.

    I think the point of my comment is that everyone deserves the opportunity to be able to prove themselves.......there are plenty of reasons why people achieve "poor" grades at a-level and not just that they are unintelligent or never do any work........some people just thrive in different types of education environment compared to others.

    I was fortunate enough to go to uni even with "poor" a-level grades and I'm glad I did because other wise I wouldn't have a top class degree to my name..................grades and social status are not the only things that defines a person and I think that sometimes people tend to be blinded by these and not look beyond them.......

    I hope that makes sense!
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    (Original post by JackieS)
    I just wanted to say something quickly and apologise loads if a similar post has already been created but I dind't have time to post through 5 pages worth of messages! I read the first post though

    I went to a state primary school and was lucky enough to get accepted into a private secondary school in South London when I was 11. My parents were never academically gifted, leaving school with a handful of o-levels between them. They have worked their socks off to ensure that my brother and I got a good education. The only reason I got into a private school was because I got an assisted place and not because my parents had plenty of money and could pay. I spent 6 years of my life trying to overcome the stigma of going to a private school, people automatically assuming that I was rich, had 5 houses and half a dozen cars. The reverse is opposite, my parents dont even own their house, until recently we have always had cars that have been 2nd hand or more and until I was 14 I never had a foreign holiday because my parents just could not afford it. I did well in my GCSE's but flunked my a-levels only getting C's and D's and as a result never managed to get into my first choice university.

    In the end I went to another university doing a similar course but going by the first post - assuming I have understood correctly, I shouldn't have been accepted due to my "poor" grades but I pulled my socks up and worked my arse off and as a result came out with a first class degree, only one of 10 people in my year that did so.

    I think the point of my comment is that everyone deserves the opportunity to be able to prove themselves.......there are plenty of reasons why people achieve "poor" grades at a-level and not just that they are unintelligent or never do any work........some people just thrive in different types of education environment compared to others.

    I was fortunate enough to go to uni even with "poor" a-level grades and I'm glad I did because other wise I wouldn't have a top class degree to my name..................grades and social status are not the only things that defines a person and I think that sometimes people tend to be blinded by these and not look beyond them.......

    I hope that makes sense!
    Hmmm, I guess it's difficult to know where to draw the line. It would be good if each case was considered on its individual merits, but that would take so much time and be very difficult to enforce properly. The people I have a problem with going to uni are the ones who get Ds and Es at A-level as a result of not doing enough work/being unintelligent and then go to uni simply for the fun of it, often doing laughably pointless courses. Before anyone jumps down my throat for that, I don't mean media studies, film studies or anything like that; I mean really pointless courses like wine studies. People who go to uni should either have As-Cs in at least 3 A-levels or have a very good reason why they don't and be able to prove that they are going to uni for the degree and will work hard.
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    (Original post by [email protected])
    I know you posted this 6 days ago - Ive only just read this thread and lots of people have probably already commented.

    That is the most annoying left as left can be opinion. Saying that people have the right to Higher Ed "even if they don't have the qualifications" is complete crap, university should be about academia and advanced study for those who have gained good A level results.

    Your comment of "what kind of place do we live in when you are refused any basic further education" is flawed because a university education should not be perceived as "basic", it is at a higher level. Anyone can do GCSEs and A levels (which I would regard as basic education).

    The truth is far too many people are going to university as a result of our absolutely appalling left wing government that is only lowering society and making it even more awful than it already is.

    Please don't confuse higher education with univeristy, higher education is a diferent thing enterly. You can go NVQs at higher level (4 and 5). University degrees a just a type of higher education.
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    (Original post by [email protected])
    The truth is far too many people are going to university as a result of our absolutely appalling left wing government that is only lowering society and making it even more awful than it already is.
    I think Blair's comment was something like "There's no reason why academic excellence shouldn't be achieved by all."

    Reactions to this are determined by whether you think excellence is an objective standard which everyone can achieve or excellence can only be applied to the achievements of the top x% of a group. I think you'd argue for the second definition? It seems that quite a lot of people who are at / want to go to / have been to university want it to remain as the preserve of a fairly small percentage of the population precisely because they don't agree in excellence for all.
 
 
 
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