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NDGAARONDI
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#21
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#21
(Original post by technik)
what about northern ireland?
It depends on how you define a nation. Ireland geographically can be argued as one nation or two. It is certainly a 'mixed' place.
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technik
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#22
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#22
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
It depends on how you define a nation. Ireland geographically can be argued as one nation or two. It is certainly a 'mixed' place.
the border isnt fiction unfortunately.
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NDGAARONDI
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#23
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#23
Also what about the Isle of Man?
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technik
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#24
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#24
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Also what about the Isle of Man?
what about it?

its a dependant area, much the same as somewhere like the falkland isl
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NDGAARONDI
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#25
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#25
I was thinking whether it was a nation as such. But, despite being not part of the UK and a direct dependency of the Crown, they seem to associate themselves with England anyway.
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technik
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#26
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#26
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
I was thinking whether it was a nation as such. But, despite being not part of the UK and a direct dependency of the Crown, they seem to associate themselves with England anyway.
in ways many of them are nations. they have their own flag, parliament, etc..

but in other ways they are dependant for military defence, use the same currency etc.
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Howard
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#27
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#27
(Original post by yawn)
But they are separate countries - Northern Ireland is not even a province.
Wales is a principality. It has never been a country in it's own right.
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kingslaw
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#28
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#28
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
It depends on how you define a nation. Ireland geographically can be argued as one nation or two. It is certainly a 'mixed' place.
Theres no single, objective defintion of a nation. It is a highly subjective, contraversial term which can be easily manipulated and used to justify anything from political, social, economic and military union, to selling products in a supermarket above the market price.
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an Siarach
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#29
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#29
(Original post by platinumki)
In Scotland, I can't think patriotism is a good think as it so often leadsto nationalism and xenophobia.
Considering scottish nationalism has little upon which to base itself other than the fact that we're not english that is pretty inevitable.
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an Siarach
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#30
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#30
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
So English resentment of France (Normans), Norway (Vikings) and Italy (Romans) are justified too on the basis of invasions?
His point was that it is not a result of historical invasions.
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Yes. It's amazing how some people use that as gospel. That film was so biased in the battles it was unbelievable. Perhaps it's time for several films to be released by Hollywood to show England fending off the Vikings, Romans and Normans. Think there are films with wars against the French and Spanish already out.
There problem there is that England was conquered by the Vikings, the Romans and the Normans :aetsch: . As for Braveheart...yes its an enormous pile of poo but a decent enough film if treated as fantasy. I dont see how the battles were biased. Apart from the fact that they had little basis in reality (where the hell was stirling bridge?) the outcome was accurate. Interestingly in reality it was the Irish who killed the most scots and the Welsh who refused to follow English orders rather than the other way around as presented in the film.
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an Siarach
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#31
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#31
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Also what about the Isle of Man?
A seperate nation but a dependancy.
(Original post by Howard)
Wales is a principality. It has never been a country in it's own right.
Yes its a principality and no it was actually an independant country prior to the 13th century.
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an Siarach
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#32
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#32
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
I was thinking whether it was a nation as such. But, despite being not part of the UK and a direct dependency of the Crown, they seem to associate themselves with England anyway.
Irritatingly so considering most of them are of Scottish descent and that the culture is far more closely linked to that of Scotland. I think its probably got something to do with England being percieved as the nation most closely linked to the monarchy.
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Kew
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#33
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#33
(Original post by an Siarach)
Yes its a principality and no it was actually an independant country prior to the 13th century.
True. If I remember rightly, it became a principality rather than an independant country after it was conquered by Edward I.
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cheesecakebobby
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#34
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#34
Wow, what an interesting debate this turned out to be...

I will therefore put forward my opinion - that partiotism is the self-crediting of others achievements, and in some cases is a subtle form of fascism. All you have to think about to understand this view is what patriotism really means. Is patriotism "being proud of your country"? By country, that probably means "the characteristics and achievements of the people in that nation". Patriotism therefore, is being proud of what other people have done. For example, if England wins a football game, you will hear many chants of "we won", just as with any such event. However, what justification have those people for saying they deserve credit? Unless the winninng is a direct result of their actions, they have no authority to do so.

Put that in a more relevant context. Some might consider driving around with a massive St George's Cross flying from your car/ van/ lorry patriotism. The question is: why? Because they are proud of their country? What exactly are they proud of? Patriotism is therefore, in my opinion, the celebration of others acheivements, purely because they live somewhere geographically close/ they share the same laws/ they have the same accent/ whatever. Patriotism is the notion that "we are better than they are"; based on the actions of people detached in all ways non geo-political. Why don't we regularly celebrate the French, or cheer when the Germans win a World Cup game? Why don't kenyan athletes get put on our front covers for winning a couple of Golds? Because we live in a certain area, with a certain history, and we feel we deserve credit for what similar people have done.

Sorry if I'm not very clear, I've never really expressed this view before.
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Howard
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#35
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#35
(Original post by kew96158)
True. If I remember rightly, it became a principality rather than an independant country after it was conquered by Edward I.
Really? My history grows shoddier!
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Kew
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Howard)
Really? My history grows shoddier!
Well, I am a History student after all, with a particular interest in medieval history...
(I'm a Music student too, but that's irrelevant)
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NDGAARONDI
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#37
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#37
(Original post by an Siarach)
There problem there is that England was conquered by the Vikings, the Romans and the Normans :aetsch:
England was founded around 450 AD so the Romans could not have 'conquered' the English since it was around 43 AD, of course, it took them three times to do it, and even then luck went their way :aetsch: . As for the Vikings, we've been through this before. Only parts of England went under their control and when I've read books on it, itheir invasion doesn't seem to count as completely successful. As for the Normans, well, wouldn't have happened if Harold just conceded the thrown to the legal successor, William I. Greed...

(Original post by kingslaw)
Theres no single, objective defintion of a nation. It is a highly subjective, contraversial term which can be easily manipulated and used to justify anything from political, social, economic and military union, to selling products in a supermarket above the market price.
Yep!

(Original post by an Siarach)
I dont see how the battles were biased. Apart from the fact that they had little basis in reality (where the hell was stirling bridge?) the outcome was accurate.
Yes. An important battle missed out. You know how Hollywood likes portraying the English as the bad guys :rolleyes:

(Original post by an Siarach)
Interestingly in reality it was the Irish who killed the most scots and the Welsh who refused to follow English orders rather than the other way around as presented in the film.
Another reason why the film gave a poor account of what really happened. But it's a failm, and not a documentary. Same thing happened with King Arthur, so I'm told.

I believe that one of the reasons why there is a lack in British patriotism is that the United Kingdom is not as united as other countries have been. Also the fact that we're no longer a superpower might help. The history of the British Isles and Europe as a whole might have further implications too.
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blissy
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#38
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#38
Have just been speaking to my mum and she reminded me that when I was little I insisted we have a union flag over our front door - in the window along the top - and it's still there. SHe also said that I used to stand up when the national anthem came on and she would say to my dad, "Where did she get that from?".

Apparently when she was little they used to play the national anthem in the cinema after a film and people used to stand and wait for it to finish before going. The old wartime spirit, according to my mum

Thought I would just throw those bizarre personal accounts in! I really enjoyed the Golden Jubileeit was really nice to feel part of something successful (yup yup, that ,'s pride I suppose). When we do it we go all out I suppose:
http://www.rafmarham.co.uk/relations...s/jub-fly6.htm

But what if we had no queen? Would we just not bother?
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NDGAARONDI
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#39
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#39
(Original post by blissy)
But what if we had no queen? Would we just not bother?
We'd just change national anthem. I think we did this when we were a republic under the so called Lord Protector of the Commonwealth fool called Oliver Cromwell. Although I'm not too sure what it changed to, presumably if it did change.
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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#40
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#40
Did we even have an official national anthem then? God Save the King came in some time in the 1700s, unless I'm a decade out.
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