Homophobia: valid opinion or mindless prejudice?

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Ben.S.

yawn

"Homosexuality can be cured - it is not a sexual identity but a developmental disorder".

Take a look at this link and give your opinions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1183596,00.html

'Inner sense of emptiness' - Hmmm...I'll be sure to write that sort of scientific detail on my biochemistry exams. :rolleyes:

Ben

Reply 281

technik

M@255

Ok, but say if we discovered that an inflated (or whatever) hypothalamus was the hormonal cause of homosexuality, there would be serious ethical issues (as ever) attached to trying to fix this - if that was ever an option.

Why would we want to necessarily correct a defect like that anyway? Surely we want diversity in society-despite the obvious drawbacks of being gay.

i guess its your opinion really. in my opinion if something is accepted as a "defect" then it should be fixed if possible.

Reply 282

veryjammy

yawn

I remember reading that last year, and I remember thinking it was a load of nonsense. You have 'cured' men saying they still avoid looking at say Men's Health magazine because of the models, thats hardly being cured. And of course the people running the organisation drag up pseudo-scientific arguments to prove their point.
Years ago people underwent electro-shock therapy and stuff and it ruined their lives, I refuse to believe I could be 'cured'. A lot fo people attending this thing seem to have been pressured by their family and the less permissive American climate and thus I think are more desperate to be cured than people over here might be.

Reply 283

yawn

Ben.S.

'Inner sense of emptiness' - Hmmm...I'll be sure to write that sort of scientific detail on my biochemistry exams. :rolleyes:

Ben

Gosh, you read that item very quickly - or did you read all the way through? I can understand that it would make for very uncomfortable reading for some but it does reveal some very interesting theories and facts.

Reply 284

yawn

veryjammy

I still haven't finished reading it - it's a lengthy item!

But your response is interesting because the report says that there is a very vociferous anti-gay cure lobby as a result of this programme.

Electro-shock therepy was never used as a treament for homosexuality but rather for treating the depression that results from homosexuality.

Reply 285

yawn

M@255

LOL! I read that too. I don't see how an "inner sense of emptiness" would be linked so strongly to sexuality though, lol.

If you read beyond the "inner sense of emptiness" sentence you will see why it is so strongly linked to the development of homosexuality.

Reply 286

Ben.S.

yawn

Like Veryjammy said, it doesn't sound like a 'cure' at all - just repression of something innate. It's actually pretty cruel, I think - insinuating that you can choose to become straight through some sort of therapy even if you couldn't choose whether or not to be 'initially' gay (or something). You're right, though - I couldn't be bothered to read the entire thing.

Ben

Reply 287

yawn

Ben.S.

I suppose that if I had sexual feelings towards people of my own sex I might feel exactly as you do about the report and I wouldn't like to read it in it's entirety as it would make me feel very uncomfortable.

However, the programme does have success stories and the people who have developed 'normal' sexual predilections after undergoing therapy seem to be very happy about the outcome. That, in my mind, justifies the continuation of the programme.

Reply 288

Ben.S.

yawn

I'm afraid that you have assumed incorrectly on that one!

Ben

Reply 289

tomcoolinguk

Am I the only person who thinks this entire thread is very, very, sad? Really, come on- this is the 21st century FFS!!!

Homophobia, like other forms of prejudice- e.g. racism, sexism- is formed by the social environment a child grows up in. It is why homophobia is far more prevalent amongst Hindu and Muslim children, and less prevalent amongst those (in this country) with parents of continental European countries. People do not have unlimited rights, and worse yet- homophobia is a product of the poisoned beliefs passed on by society.

Most gay people I know are very unassuming and tolerant people, who do not aim to force their sexuality upon people, but merely want to be respected. This should not surprise you, as this is the reflection I get of most straight people- of course there is one loon who wants to show everyone that he can kiss his girlfriend, but most people straight and gay, keep their sexuality private.

The argument earlier in the thread that some people may be justified to hate gay people if they have 'been attacked by gay people' is pathetic. In fact, anyone with such a condition would receive major psychological counselling. Such disorders are hugely damaging. If I was mugged in Manchester by a black, Afro-carribean man, I would be called racist if I said from that point 'No blacks, I want nothing to do with them becuase ONE black man attacked me ONCE so therefore ALL black men will attack me'. It is beyond stupid.

I think this thread shows how little our society has progressed. It should make everyone question the degree of truth in platitudes made to those of other groups, and ask- are they just lip service?

Reply 290

veryjammy

yawn

It's all been repressed that's all. They'll still be eyeing up the men. Do you believe you could be converted to homosexuality? And if not why should it be any different the other way round?
The programme focuses on people who are unhappy with themselves or who have had a lot ofpressure put upon them, so they are likely to force themselves to be cured. I doubt if you put people comfortable with their sexuality in the programme you would see remotely similar results

Reply 291

Rich

yawn

Who cares whether or not this programme has 'success stories'? Why do you even call them 'success stories'? Why is it a success to change someone's preference; would you call it a success story if I convinced a vegetarian to start eating meat?

These programmes are trying to fix something which isn't broken and are just forcing repression which is very psychologically damaging. Homosexuality does not harm anyone as long as it is practised between consenting parties (such as is the case with any kind of sexual behaviour), so what exactly are we trying to fix? What is broken is society and its illogical and dated views; they are what we need to fix.

Reply 292

Zarathustra

yawn

Electro-shock therepy was never used as a treament for homosexuality but rather for treating the depression that results from homosexuality.

Not quite the case.

Lou Reed had shock treatment for suspected homosexuality.

Also see here: "Aversion therapy with electric shock was the most common treatment" (study of treatments for homosexuality in the last 50years).

It used to be set up quite a lot with gay men being shown erotic pictures of other males and then being shocked (or, alternatively, given something to make them throw up), especially if they showed any signs of arousal. For a long time this was not voluntary. And it was to rid them of homosexual tendencies, not any attendant depression (which they may not have even had). Needless to say, many of these men's lives were utterly ruined and they never had another successful sexual encounter for the rest of their adult lives.

I did have an account written by someone who underwent such treatment in my psychology folder last year ... must try to find that, it was good.

ZarathustraX

naivesincerity

I've always wondered how do some homosexuals [...] feel about the whole notion of the "gay community" does it offend you to be pigeonholed into a culture, when your sexuality is just one aspect of your lifestyle?

[Apologies for butting in on your conversation with someone else, but...]
Yes, it does. I also think that allowing people to define you purely in terms of your sexuality and going to special segregated pubs / clubs / funeral directors (no joke) as a result of it is in some sense perpetuating homophobia, or at least continuing the necessary preconditions for it. If full integration was achieved and people were just viewed as people (who may or may not be straight but who cares) rather than 'a certain type of person', then a lot of the problems would just disappear. Having said that though, whilst homophobia is still an issue, it's good that people have places to go where they can feel safe and know that they won't be subjected to homophobic abuse, etc.

Reply 293

piemonster411

ZArathustra are you gay?

Reply 294

Zarathustra

piemonster411

ZArathustra are you gay?

Why?

Zarathustra.

Reply 295

piemonster411

Zarathustra

Why?

Zarathustra.

You seem to have quite strong feelings concerning the subject matter. I interpreted your last post as speaking from experience. Actually reading your post again, it seems quite clear that you are gay.

Reply 296

veryjammy

Zarathustra I can see what ur saying about the gay community but do you not think it is natural to lean towards being around people with similarities to you, be that in terms of colour, nationality, religion, social interests?

And I prefer going to gay bars and clubs cos I think most straight ones are rubbish rather than from a picking up guys perspective (well most of the time). But then a lot of straight guys and gals go out to get chatted up or whatever, so theres nothing wrong with gay people going mainly to gay places to meet other guys is there?

Reply 297

Zarathustra

veryjammy

No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all - I prefer gay bars myself. I just think there's something...dangerous...-I can't quite put my finger on it- about allowing segregation along those lines. Partly because, as I said, defining ourselves in terms of sexuality encourages the category 'homosexuals', as opposed to just 'people who happen to be gay' (see: all my previous posts about gay as ideally an adjective not a noun), which then defines into existence a group of people that prejudice can be directed against. And partly because I think seperatism is perhaps a bad thing insofar as it doesn't counter ignorance and unfounded assumptions in the way that integrating with the rest of society would.

However, as I tried (but, I realise, failed!) to say before, not separating out would perhaps have been a way to prevent homophobia happening, but in a society in which people are already prejudiced the 'community' definitely has a positive role.
I fear that might not have made any sense...please don't flame me if that's the case! I can correct / explain after.

ZarathustraX

EDIT: Veryjammy: I meant also to say, on the subject of gay bars, that I don't see all of the community stuff as being bad in the ways outlined above. Obviously, the bars serve the purpose of allowing people to meet others with similar interests, etc. and it can sometimes be hard to find other gay people without places in common like that. My problem is that I think it's gone too far - gay bars serve a positive function; what does going to, for eg, a gay funeral director do other than promote attitudes of radical seperatism? Imho we've just become a market that a few businesses have finally tapped ('pink pound' thinking, etc.), and these businesses require the continuation of homophobia in order to actually make money: nobody would pay extra to go to an official gay dentist if they didn't feel that they might be in some bizarre way discriminated against at a 'regular' one. (NB. Unless they happened to fancy the gay dentist!). So...I think that we kind of agree? Not sure though. :confused:

Reply 298

yawn

rahaydenuk

Who cares whether or not this programme has 'success stories'? Why do you even call them 'success stories'?

I am not calling them success stories - the people who run the programme designed to 'cure' what they consider a developmental condition, cite the cases where a person has ceased to be homosexual and are now heterosexual, as success stories.

If a homosexual doesn't try the therapy how will they ever know whether their homosexuality is 'normal' or 'abnormal'?

I have no axe to grind one way or the other - I am just the messenger! :rolleyes:

Reply 299

Rich

yawn

I am not calling them success stories - the people who run the programme designed to 'cure' what they consider a developmental condition, cite the cases where a person has ceased to be homosexual and are now heterosexual, as success stories.

If a homosexual doesn't try the therapy how will they ever know whether their homosexuality is 'normal' or 'abnormal'?

I have no axe to grind one way or the other - I am just the messenger! :rolleyes:

OK, but what do you mean when you say 'normal' and 'abnormal'? Furthermore, why does it matter if their behaviour is abnormal? Many people would say that geniuses (genii?) such as Einstein were abnormal, but no one ever suggested they should go on normalisation programmes.