Homophobia: valid opinion or mindless prejudice? Watch

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technik
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i'll step in and do definitions...my forte

normal, that which is the many.
abnormal, those that deviate from the many.
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Zarathustra
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(Original post by technik)
i'll step in and do definitions...my forte

normal, that which is the many.
abnormal, those that deviate from the many.
I second Rahayden's example then: Einstein was intellectually abnormal (his IQ was more than two standard deviations away from the mean), but nobody would have dreamed of trying to 'cure' him or return him to normality...

ZarathustraX
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NDGAARONDI
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(Original post by technik)
i'll step in and do definitions...my forte

normal, that which is the many.
abnormal, those that deviate from the many.
So using this many people would therefore call homosexuality abnormal. However, the same could be said about medical conditions that are well known but affect less people, such as diabetes and epileptics.
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technik
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(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
So using this many people would therefore call homosexuality abnormal. However, the same could be said about medical conditions that are well known but affect less people, such as diabetes and epileptics.
indeed the same could be said. same goes for asthma and OCD which i suffer from.
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Rich
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(Original post by technik)
i'll step in and do definitions...my forte

normal, that which is the many.
abnormal, those that deviate from the many.
OK, that's the easy part, but can you now justify why abnormality should be avoided and why it's such a bad thing?
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technik
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(Original post by rahaydenuk)
OK, that's the easy part, but can you now justify why abnormality should be avoided and why it's such a bad thing?
its not always a bad thing, so you'll have to work it out yourself or try someone else
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Rich
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(Original post by technik)
its not always a bad thing, so you'll have to work it out yourself or try someone else
Is it a bad thing when it comes to homosexuality? If so, why and why is it any different to the Einstein example?
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veryjammy
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(Original post by Zarathustra)
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all - I prefer gay bars myself. I just think there's something...dangerous...-I can't quite put my finger on it- about allowing segregation along those lines. Partly because, as I said, defining ourselves in terms of sexuality encourages the category 'homosexuals', as opposed to just 'people who happen to be gay' (see: all my previous posts about gay as ideally an adjective not a noun), which then defines into existence a group of people that prejudice can be directed against. And partly because I think seperatism is perhaps a bad thing insofar as it doesn't counter ignorance and unfounded assumptions in the way that integrating with the rest of society would.

However, as I tried (but, I realise, failed!) to say before, not separating out would perhaps have been a way to prevent homophobia happening, but in a society in which people are already prejudiced the 'community' definitely has a positive role.
I fear that might not have made any sense...please don't flame me if that's the case! I can correct / explain after.

ZarathustraX

EDIT: Veryjammy: I meant also to say, on the subject of gay bars, that I don't see all of the community stuff as being bad in the ways outlined above. Obviously, the bars serve the purpose of allowing people to meet others with similar interests, etc. and it can sometimes be hard to find other gay people without places in common like that. My problem is that I think it's gone too far - gay bars serve a positive function; what does going to, for eg, a gay funeral director do other than promote attitudes of radical seperatism? Imho we've just become a market that a few businesses have finally tapped ('pink pound' thinking, etc.), and these businesses require the continuation of homophobia in order to actually make money: nobody would pay extra to go to an official gay dentist if they didn't feel that they might be in some bizarre way discriminated against at a 'regular' one. (NB. Unless they happened to fancy the gay dentist!). So...I think that we kind of agree? Not sure though. :confused:
No I do agree with you on this, there is largely no need for gay this and gay that. As you said I think these businesses do to some extent rest on there still being prejudice in straight places. However I do think some people choose to immerse themselves in a gay 'community' on purpose, maybe because they have in the past felt rejected by society, I don't know. I was lucky enough to have been brought up in Manchester and so never had any problems because the gay scene there is accepted by the city, and is considered an integral part of it. Perhaps if I had been brought up on a farm in Wales for example (sorry for stereotyping Wales), I may feel the need to throw myself into everything gay when I moved to a major city perhaps.

But like I said before, this isn't limited to homosexuality. Muslims for example, may send their kids to Muslim schools, shop at Muslim shops etc...if you feel in the minority it is natural to feel an affinity with any place, whether exploitative or not, that seems to accept you
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Weejimmie
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"It [a baby] looks like a perfectly normal thing to me."
"for only sameness is normal
in ever-ever land..."
?How are you going to determine normality- as a norm, a mean or an average? However you do so, you will find that it is so rare that normality is a very rare and abnormal condition.
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yawn
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Pertaining to homosexuality and the 'same-sex' act of sex we have to consider the anatomy of the male/female.

We are born with either male or female genitalia depending on gender.

The male has a penis that is designed to 'fit' into the female's vagina for the act of copulation and potential reproduction.

Of course, the homosexual will adapt copulation to fulfill his sexual needs. In the fulfilment of those needs, he either restricts himself to masturbation - both personal and shared - or uses his penis to penetrate an alternative to the vagina. That alternative is invariably an anus - the channel for excretion.

This is the crux of what is considered abnormal, rather than anything else I would say.

Other opinions welcomed and respected.
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veryjammy
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(Original post by yawn)
Pertaining to homosexuality and the 'same-sex' act of sex we have to consider the anatomy of the male/female.

We are born with either male or female genitalia depending on gender.

The male has a penis that is designed to 'fit' into the female's vagina for the act of copulation and potential reproduction.

Of course, the homosexual will adapt copulation to fulfill his sexual needs. In the fulfilment of those needs, he either restricts himself to masturbation - both personal and shared - or uses his penis to penetrate an alternative to the vagina. That alternative is invariably an anus - the channel for excretion.

This is the crux of what is considered abnormal, rather than anything else I would say.

Other opinions welcomed and respected.
But if they so choose heterosexual couples may also choose to indulge in anal sex. Does that make them abnormal for trying that? You're implying that only the one sex act is normal. What about watersports/bondage/domination and all sorts of other stuff. Are they also abnormal, because it isn't part of procreation to do watersports etc...
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yawn
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(Original post by veryjammy)
But if they so choose heterosexual couples may also choose to indulge in anal sex. Does that make them abnormal for trying that? You're implying that only the one sex act is normal. What about watersports/bondage/domination and all sorts of other stuff. Are they also abnormal, because it isn't part of procreation to do watersports etc...
I am confining my suggestion of the opinion that homosexuality is abnormal to some people, to the sexual act of those who are homosexual.

The fact that a small proportion of heterosexual couples may practice anal sex could also be considered abnormal by many, when talking of the anatomy of the male and female.
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veryjammy
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(Original post by yawn)
I am confining my suggestion of the opinion that homosexuality is abnormal to some people, to the sexual act of those who are homosexual.

The fact that a small proportion of heterosexual couples may practice anal sex could also be considered abnormal by many, when talking of the anatomy of the male and female.
But you're essentially saying that vaginal penetration is the only 'normal' act of sex. So shall we forget about oral because I don't think it was intended to stick ur penis into someones mouth, after all the mouth should be used for talking and ingesting food only? It's a very narrow minded view if all you consider sex to be is fitting of the anatomy
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katiesado
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(Original post by yawn)
This is the crux of what is considered abnormal.
it seems to me that the best way to determine if anal sex is really "abnormal" is to understand what percentage of the population engages in it. I'd estimate that a significant enough portion does it to no longer deem the act "abnormal". whether or not it was nature's intended purpose for both organs isn't really a question seeing as there are many ways we change our bodies (circumcision, peircing, tattoos etc) from their natural states. many cultures participate in body modification that could be called "abnormal" depending on who's voicing the opinion. it's the same for ways we behave, seeing as we've evolved far away from our "natural" instinctive roots. perhaps many of the things we accept as normal behavior in modern society would be deemed as "abnormal" to past societies and other cultures in the world.

in short anal sex is really not that abnormal and it's unnaturalness is relative.
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yawn
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(Original post by veryjammy)
But you're essentially saying that vaginal penetration is the only 'normal' act of sex. So shall we forget about oral because I don't think it was intended to stick ur penis into someones mouth, after all the mouth should be used for talking and ingesting food only? It's a very narrow minded view if all you consider sex to be is fitting of the anatomy
My quote about anatomy was in response to the question 'what is abnormal or normal when relating to homosexuality'.

My explanation gave one reason why some people may consider homosexual sex as abnormal - and this is why I referred to the anatomy of males and females.

I was not being expansive on purpose as my intent was to give a possible explanation to the pertinent question.

I apologise if I am not making myself clear enough so that you are bringing in all other sorts of things to my post - but I hope I have clarified my position.
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Ben.S.
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(Original post by yawn)
That alternative is invariably an anus - the channel for excretion.

This is the crux of what is considered abnormal, rather than anything else I would say.
Actually, you are wrong (just to be pedantic). The anus is for egestion, the vagina is used for excretion!

Ben
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NDGAARONDI
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(Original post by yawn)
Of course, the homosexual will adapt copulation to fulfill his sexual needs. In the fulfilment of those needs, he either restricts himself to masturbation - both personal and shared - or uses his penis to penetrate an alternative to the vagina. That alternative is invariably an anus - the channel for excretion.
Funny how you refer homosexual to be construed to men only isn't it? Ever heard of female homosexuals using strap ons, fisting and butt plugs for anal stimulation?
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Rich
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(Original post by yawn)
Pertaining to homosexuality and the 'same-sex' act of sex we have to consider the anatomy of the male/female.

We are born with either male or female genitalia depending on gender.

The male has a penis that is designed to 'fit' into the female's vagina for the act of copulation and potential reproduction.

Of course, the homosexual will adapt copulation to fulfill his sexual needs. In the fulfilment of those needs, he either restricts himself to masturbation - both personal and shared - or uses his penis to penetrate an alternative to the vagina. That alternative is invariably an anus - the channel for excretion.

This is the crux of what is considered abnormal, rather than anything else I would say.

Other opinions welcomed and respected.
Surely you should separate sex for reproduction's sake and sex for pleasure's sake. In the case of the former, clearly male and female genitalia were designed to work together to fulfill this goal. However, in the case of the latter, both anal sex and vaginal sex create pleasure, so when considering just sex for pleasure's sake, they are both equally 'normal' or 'abnormal' sex acts surely?
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yawn
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(Original post by rahaydenuk)
Surely you should separate sex for reproduction's sake and sex for pleasure's sake. In the case of the former, clearly male and female genitalia were designed to work together to fulfill this goal. However, in the case of the latter, both anal sex and vaginal sex create pleasure, so when considering just sex for pleasure's sake, they are both equally 'normal' or 'abnormal' sex acts surely?
No - the question was, why is homosexual sex seen as abnormal or normal.

I gave a possible reason why some heterosexual people would see it as abnormal.

As a female I can state that anal sex would not lead to orgasm without being accompanied by simultaneous stimulation elsewhere - and I suspect the same would be true for homosexual sex.

I am sorry if this offends some posters, but my intention was purely to rationalise the feelings of some heterosexuals on why homosexual copulation is seen as abnormal by them and it comes down to anatomy.
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veryjammy
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(Original post by yawn)
No - the question was, why is homosexual sex seen as abnormal or normal.

I gave a possible reason why some heterosexual people would see it as abnormal.

As a female I can state that anal sex would not lead to orgasm without being accompanied by simultaneous stimulation elsewhere - and I suspect the same would be true for homosexual sex.

I am sorry if this offends some posters, but my intention was purely to rationalise the feelings of some heterosexuals on why homosexual copulation is seen as abnormal by them and it comes down to anatomy.
Yes, u SUSPECT. I know people who have achieved orgasm through purely anal sex with no other stimulation.
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