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tiantang
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#1
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I was wondering if their was any rivalry between the London unis, especially between the top 3: Imperial, LSE and UCL. :bootyshak

Or is their great comradery between the unis :hello:

Or are the unis pretty insular and have little communication with the others. :hmpf:
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an Siarach
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The rivalry between UCL and KCL goes back almost two centuries to when they were founded; KCL was founded as a religious reaction against the secular UCL. I believe Imperial/UCL/KCL/LSE are all rivals but im unsure to what extent or if any of the smaller/less famous colleges are involved at all.
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little.rebel.L
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well, imperial has the nick name Gimperial.. but hey, we know we are better than the rest, we don't need to be told about it
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Kew
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(Original post by an Siarach)
The rivalry between UCL and KCL goes back almost two centuries to when they were founded; KCL was founded as a religious reaction against the secular UCL. I believe Imperial/UCL/KCL/LSE are all rivals but im unsure to what extent or if any of the smaller/less famous colleges are involved at all.
Well, RHUL can compete pretty well with KCL...but I know your opinion on that already
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an Siarach
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(Original post by kew96158)
Well, RHUL can compete pretty well with KCL...but I know your opinion on that already
Thats neither here nor there. We're talking about rivalries of which i know definately of UCL v KCL and the others i only guess at. Its possible that UCL/KCL/Imperial/LSE all have various rivalries as historically they are the powerhouses and elites of London while RH has never been this is unlikely to feature significantly amongst these rivalries.
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HammaL
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LSE vs IMP
KCL vs UCL
How about this then?
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an Siarach
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(Original post by HamaL)
LSE vs IMP
KCL vs UCL
How about this then?
I got the impression theres an LSE v IMP rivalry for sure but LSE students have also seemed quite hostile to UCL as well. Any idea if there are rivalries involving the smaller/less known colleges like RH,SOAS,QM,Goldsmiths etc?
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Kew
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(Original post by an Siarach)
Thats neither here nor there. We're talking about rivalries of which i know definately of UCL v KCL and the others i only guess at. Its possible that UCL/KCL/Imperial/LSE all have various rivalries as historically they are the powerhouses and elites of London while RH has never been this is unlikely to feature significantly amongst these rivalries.
...but it could do in the future... it deserves to at any rate, even if it isn't quite as old.
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an Siarach
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(Original post by kew96158)
...but it could do in the future... it deserves to at any rate, even if it isn't quite as old.
Yes of course it could but thats got nothing to do with this discussion! And it does not deserve to rate with the others as it simply has not been so historically prominent nor is it currently as prominent as the Big 3/4. Look, RH is an excellent university and one of the best in the country but that does not change history nor does it change facts regarding how it relates to UCL/LSE/IMP/KCL.
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kingslaw
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Theres a famous rivalry between UCL and KCL (Euston Tech/That Godless Institution on Gower St, and Strand Poly). Also, from talking to a couple of med student at GImperial, there's a rivalry between the all the med schools (given that they said they would not talk to me if I was from Guys, Kings and St Thomas' - the med school at Kings!). Theres also some name for LSE, something to do with International School, or along those lines - but I can't remember what it is now.

I'm not sure about the smaller/lesser known universities like QM, RH, etc. I've never met a student from these unis.

However, the rivalry nothing major. Its just harmless banter. Most students have friends across all the colleges in UoL. It just boils over in sporting competitions really.
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kingslaw
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(Original post by kew96158)
...but it could do in the future... it deserves to at any rate, even if it isn't quite as old.
Completely off topic, but the fact is, regardless of the quality of its undergrads, RH just doesn't have the distinguished history and reputation that the top UoL colleges do - regardless of whether it deserves to do so (although from my memory, your main argument was it was a couple places above KCL in some sort of league table, which in itself is far from conclusive!). Without these qualities it can't attract the big name academics like LSE/UCL/Imp/KCL do. I can safely say that I have never read a legal book or article which has been written or edited by a RHUL academic, nor, to my knowledge, even referenced one. Well...apart from one of my Nutshells books that it.
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tiantang
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#12
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(Original post by kingslaw)
Completely off topic, but the fact is, regardless of the quality of its undergrads, RH just doesn't have the distinguished history and reputation that the top UoL colleges do - regardless of whether it deserves to do so (although from my memory, your main argument was it was a couple places above KCL in some sort of league table, which in itself is far from conclusive!). Without these qualities it can't attract the big name academics like LSE/UCL/Imp/KCL do. I can safely say that I have never read a legal book or article which has been written or edited by a RHUL academic, nor, to my knowledge, even referenced one. Well...apart from one of my Nutshells books that it.
I find it strange that there would be competition between LSE and Imperiel because their courses are pretty much the complete opposite e.g. LSE specialise in Ecomics, Law and Business which Imperiel don't even do!

I also heard from my mate that their tends to be a degree of snobbery from LSE/Imperiel/UCL to the lesser known london unis.
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kingslaw
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(Original post by tiantang)
I find it strange that there would be competition between LSE and Imperiel because their courses are pretty much the complete opposite e.g. LSE specialise in Ecomics, Law and Business which Imperiel don't even do!

I also heard from my mate that their tends to be a degree of snobbery from LSE/Imperiel/UCL to the lesser known london unis.
Hmmm...the only snobbery I've come across is in debating competitions. Put it this way, the President of the Kings Debating Society said to us before one of the competions "Finish below Queen Mary, and you'll never debate for Kings again" - obviously jokingly. But I'm sure its all relative. LSE probably mock UCL/KCL, UCL probably mock KCL, KCL mock QM (and for the sake of tradition, UCL), and so on.

Personally I think actually 'mocking' other universities is out of order. Its academic snobbery at its worst. Plus, considering many of those at UCL, KCL, QM or RHUL could have EASILY got into LSE or Imperial for a less competitive courses than the ones they applied for (or in the case of LSE, probably could've got in if they were an international student) kinda puts all the snobbery into perspective. I think the people who act snobbily regarding other institutions are the type of people who are relying on the reputation of their respecitve university to make claims to acadmeic competence, rather than their own accomplishments.

The fact is, someone who, at the end of their degree, gets a first from Kings or UCL is more academically competent than someone who gets a 2:1 or 2:2 from LSE (they have mostly the SAME moderators, before anyone claims its harder to get a first at LSE than the other two places). When you complete your degree, all the taunts and put downs regarding universities become meaningless, and, shock horror, you actually have to rely on your own abilities, and not on those of the people around you.
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Kew
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(Original post by kingslaw)
Completely off topic, but the fact is, regardless of the quality of its undergrads, RH just doesn't have the distinguished history and reputation that the top UoL colleges do - regardless of whether it deserves to do so (although from my memory, your main argument was it was a couple places above KCL in some sort of league table, which in itself is far from conclusive!). Without these qualities it can't attract the big name academics like LSE/UCL/Imp/KCL do. I can safely say that I have never read a legal book or article which has been written or edited by a RHUL academic, nor, to my knowledge, even referenced one. Well...apart from one of my Nutshells books that it.
I suppose the fact that it was a women-only college until the 1960s has set it back a bit, but all the same - you can't say it doesn't have a distinguished history or reputation, even if it has always been rather in the shadow of UCL etc. (because of it being a female-only college and therefore not 'mainstream', and not being old enough to have been able to collect as many prestigious alumni)...George Eliot was an undergraduate here, for a start... and I can assure you there are 'big name' academics in the Music and History departments, particularly the Music one (I don't know about the other subjects). Oh, and the reason why you won't have read a legal book or article which has been referenced by a RHUL academic - RHUL doesn't have a Law department or offer it as a degree.
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vigo
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The "some sort of league table" you are referring to is the times league table.RH is definetely better than KCL in the subjects they have in common, you can check it out in the ratings table.As far as the rivalries are comcerned everybody knows that the main rival of imperial is cambridge,ucl is way ahead KCL,LSE cannot be compared to any of those since it's a specialised uni,and KCL-RH are in the same league.History might favout KCL but when you see that in the sublects they have in common rh has scored 5* while KCL 4* then who cares about history.And please dont put ucl in the same league with KCL,maybe in a few decades from now
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kingslaw
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(Original post by vigo)
The "some sort of league table" you are referring to is the times league table.RH is definetely better than KCL in the subjects they have in common, you can check it out in the ratings table.As far as the rivalries are comcerned everybody knows that the main rival of imperial is cambridge,ucl is way ahead KCL,LSE cannot be compared to any of those since it's a specialised uni,and KCL-RH are in the same league.History might favout KCL but when you see that in the sublects they have in common rh has scored 5* while KCL 4* then who cares about history.And please dont put ucl in the same league with KCL,maybe in a few decades from now
Like I say, I don't really care for league tables, and nor do most people who have any idea about academia. Nor do I care for the strict ranking of universities, when, as I said above, its up to the achievement of the individual, not his or her university.

What its all about is the name. And like it or not, the longer a university has been established, the more glittering alumni it's produced, the greater its name is going to mean in the academic world, the more top class academics it will attract, the more books, articles, reports produced the name of the university on it. Regardless of how well RH has been performing in the last few years, its still being handicapped by its lack of establishment. I have nothing against RH at all, in fact I'm very much a supporter of a more unified University of London - the only viable option to competing with Oxbridge in the UK.

I'm not under the delusion that KCL is performing anywhere near as magnificently as UCL at the moment (I think UCL is a fantastic uni and the best multi-faculty outside of Oxbridge), but historically speaking those two have been on the same footing for a long, long time. History isn't easily forgotten. Maybe the balance will re-adjust, maybe it wont. KCL took a kicking in the 90s but all the signs show its regaining its status again. A universities reputation isnt dependant on its ranking in the league table year on year - Oxford is something like 15th for Economics, has that dented its reputation?
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vigo
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I agree with what you say,i'm just thinking that it's time for this country to stop its obsession with certain universities. And i believe that oxbridge lately is not as dominant as it used to be,especially oxford.Imperial for instance is way better in sciences...And even if someone chooses oxford over LSE for social sciences they know it's just for reputation and not because it's better. As far as employers are concerned, from my experience so far, they tend to favour imperial graduates more than oxford ones(even if imperial is not as old as oxford)...
Anyway,i'm changing the subject here...
By the way,i would definetely love to see a unified university of london but it's a wishful thinking
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KingsComp
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The "some sort of league table" you are referring to is the times league table.RH is definetely better than KCL in the subjects they have in common, you can check it out in the ratings table.
Umm, no! Now I personally am NOT a fan of league tables and in fact despise them, but you are forcing me to use examples of them:

Kings was rated in the top 100 in TWO recent world league tables (Shanghai Jiao Tong and Times)
Kings was rated 7th in the Guardian league table
Kings was rated 13th in the Sunday Times League table

lets now compare with RH shall we?

RH was rated 404-502 in the Shanghai Jiao Tong World Rankings
RH wasnt even in the Times world rankings (or I just cant find it)
RH was rated 17th in the Guardian League table
RH was rated 25th in the Sunday Times League table

Yes I agree in ONE League table, the Times league table, RH was ONE place above Kings - but just basing your whole argument on one league table isnt really much evidence, especially as the year before Kings was above RH.

ucl is way ahead KCL
I would again disagree, the two colleges are pretty much equal in most subjects especially in medicine, law, history, classics, music and philosophy and some more!! Yes I do agree that to a small extent UCL Is currenly better, but to say that "UCL IS WAY AHEAD OF KINGS" could not be more far from the truth, the two colleges are almost equal and a degree from one is comparable to a degree from the other in terms of prestigue (God I hate that word) and value.

KCL-RH are in the same league.
History might favout KCL but when you see that in the sublects they have in common rh has scored 5* while KCL 4*
Umm, again I disagree. RH is by no way in the same league as Kings, Kings has one of the top medical schools in whole of Europe.
Kings is a member of the Russell Group and has more than 4 times if not more resources and earning power for research than that of RH.
Kings has MANY more subjects than RH, so just by saying that RH is better on some subjects in terms of ratings (which change EVERY year) is absurd as you cant compare the two. Kings teaches more than double if not triple the amount of subjects that RH teaches.

maybe in a few decades from now
Much earlier than that I think, as Kings has just had a new president who seems to be sorting Kings out now, He is currently spending £400 million on regeneration of all the campuses and dedicated three pages of the Times Advertisments last week on bringing in new academics.
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Kew
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#19
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Hmmm let's see

Research scores for the subjects they have in common:

Business Studies - Kings 4 RHUL 4
Classics - Kings 5* RHUL 5
Computer Science - Kings 4 RHUL 5
English - Kings 4 RHUL 5
French - Kings 5 RHUL 5*
Geography - Kings 4 RHUL 5*
German - Kings 5* RHUL 5*
History - Kings 5* RHUL 5
Mathematics - Kings 5 RHUL 5
Molecular Biosciences - Kings 3a RHUL 5
Music - Kings 5 RHUL 5*
Physics - Kings 4 RHUL 5
Politics - Kings 5* RHUL 4

In other words, RHUL scores higher or equal to Kings in the vast majority of subjects they have in common - Kings does better in only three subjects. In addition, unlike Kings, RHUL can actually say that it doesn't have a single department rated below a 4.

I notice, incidentally, that Kings doesn't have quite as wide a range of subjects as has been claimed. It doesn't offer, for example, such mainstream subjects as Economics, Geology, Sociology, Organismal Biosciences, Drama or Italian - all of which RHUL offer. Let's face it, if you took away Medicine and subjects allied to it, Kings would have a merely average breadth of subjects.
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KingsComp
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Hmm, I agree the few subjects that you quoted are not being taught by Kings, let’s just see what subjects Kings does that RH doesn’t?

Here are just a FEW subjects that Kings does that RH Doesn’t do:

American Studies, Anatomy, Archaeology, Brazilian Studies, Byzantine Studies, Dentistry, Dietetics, Education, ENGINEERING (Electronic & Mechanical), Health, Immunology, Law, Medicine, Midwifery, Neuroscience, Nursing, Nutrition, Pharmacology, Pharmacy, Philosophy, Physiotherapy, Portuguese, Telecommunications, Turkish, War Studies

(forgive me if I have made a mistake :P)

On top of that, Kings also has WORLD recognised subjects such as War Studies and their Medical department is one of the top Medical departments in whole of Europe as well their world recognised Law department.

So lets put this into perspective, you have quoted that RH does better in 6 subjects, however I have listed 26 subjects that RH doesnt even do! thats more than quadruple!

Yes I agree that percentage wise (according to the number of subjects that RH teach) RH has more 5* ratings, however if your doing less that half the subjects than Kings, its not much of a comparison. Im sure you must also agree that its easier to focus and improve the quality of just a few subjects than all of them. And in this case Kings HAS focused its quality on its Medical, Dentistry, Law, Philosophy, War Studies, Classics and some other departments which are recognised world wide.

The resources available to Kings are far beyond that of RH, now I am not saying anything bad about RH, in the UK it is quite a good university, but I still disagree that it is on the same standing as Kings. I guess you still have to convince me :rolleyes:
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