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MRLX69
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#21
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#21
Alright, here goes (I haven't got he full details).

It is a H2 gas produced. Something to do with the fact that a ketone doesn't exists in the structure shown in the text books. It exists the in a similar way as amino acids (not really but it's an example of what I'm talking about). Something about the 'resonance structure'. Plus there could be some water in it so it forms an equalibrium of di-ols. BCHL85, if you still don't believe it reacts, please try it yourself. Get some acetone and add sodium to it.

I'm off to watch that da vinci code thing on tv noww!!!! YAY!
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BCHL85
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#22
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(Original post by Ben.S.)
I'm guessing that Na is reacting with proponane much as it would with any acid - producing a sodium salt and evolving hydrogen gas. The hydrogens in the alpha positions to the carbonyl are fairly acidic (pKa about 20), and will probably react as such (as in a simple enolisation). That might well be rubbish, though!

Ben
Sorry ..Na reacts with propanone CH3.CO.CH3 ... so you mean oxygen pulls electron density to itself ..so H in CH3 is more active? Yeah, it does, but I think that doesn't make C-H bond be weaker enough to react.
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Ben.S.
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#23
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(Original post by BCHL85)
Sorry ..Na reacts with propanone CH3.CO.CH3 ... so you mean oxygen pulls electron density to itself ..so H in CH3 is more active? Yeah, it does, but I think that doesn't make C-H bond be weaker enough to react.
Trust me, I've just had an entire term of lectures on this topic - it reacts. Ever wondered what keto-enol tautomerism is?

Ben
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MRLX69
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#24
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(Original post by BCHL85)
Sorry ..Na reacts with propanone CH3.CO.CH3 ... so you mean oxygen pulls electron density to itself ..so H in CH3 is more active? Yeah, it does, but I think that doesn't make C-H bond be weaker enough to react.
Once I get all the info off my friend tomorrow, I'll tell you guys.

Thanks all for trying to help me! Really appreciated!
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MRLX69
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#25
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(Original post by Ben.S.)
Trust me, I've just had an entire term of lectures on this topic - it reacts. Ever wondered what keto-enol tautomerism is?

Ben
Thank you Ben! IT DOES REACT! BCHL85, take this! :aetsch:
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BCHL85
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#26
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(Original post by MRLX69)
Thank you Ben! IT DOES REACT! BCHL85, take this! :aetsch:
Ok, I'll try myself.
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BCHL85
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#27
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#27
So can sodium react with aldehyde? As your explanation for ketone ... C=O in aldehyde can also make it more acidic, right? So it could be. I just know reaction between carbonyl compound with a compound of Sodium is NaHSO3.
I asked my teacher, and he said ... he had never tried ... and guess if it's dry ketone, there's no reaction.
Sorry cuz I'm still confused about that.
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Ben.S.
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#28
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(Original post by BCHL85)
So can sodium react with aldehyde? As your explanation for ketone ... C=O in aldehyde can also make it more acidic, right? So it could be. I just know reaction between carbonyl compound with a compound of Sodium is NaHSO3.
I asked my teacher, and he said ... he had never tried ... and guess if it's dry ketone, there's no reaction.
Sorry cuz I'm still confused about that.
It seems more likely to be a reduction, actually. I'm interested now.

Ben
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BCHL85
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#29
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(Original post by Ben.S.)
It seems more likely to be a reduction, actually. I'm interested now.

Ben
Did you find out something about that? I myself can not do the reaction cuz of my teacher. But I do believe that it can not react. Maybe Im too stubborn :cool:
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MRLX69
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#30
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(Original post by BCHL85)
Did you find out something about that? I myself can not do the reaction cuz of my teacher. But I do believe that it can not react. Maybe Im too stubborn :cool:
Yes you are. You are ignorant and stubborn. You're merely doing A level. They do not tell you the whole story. Please don't argue with me any more. I KNOW it reacts and I know WHY it reacts. Please look in a degree level ORGANIC CHEMISTRY text book. I will not waste my time arguing with you anymore. You ignorant fool.
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BCHL85
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#31
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(Original post by MRLX69)
Yes you are. You are ignorant and stubborn. You're merely doing A level. They do not tell you the whole story. Please don't argue with me any more. I KNOW it reacts and I know WHY it reacts. Please look in a degree level ORGANIC CHEMISTRY text book. I will not waste my time arguing with you anymore. You ignorant fool.
I didn't argue with you, MRLX69. Ok, my Chemistry level is not high enough, but I asked Ben.S about reaction between aldehyde and sodium. And I also asked my Chemistry teacher about that, he thought like I did. If the ketone is not dry, they may react.
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MRLX69
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#32
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(Original post by BCHL85)
I didn't argue with you, MRLX69. Ok, my Chemistry level is not high enough, but I asked Ben.S about reaction between aldehyde and sodium. And I also asked my Chemistry teacher about that, he thought like I did. If the ketone is not dry, they may react.
Sorry about my harsh reply . Well, it does. Dry or not dry. Ketones form a resonance structure making it vunerable to electrophilic and nucleophilic attacks. I found it out in some Chemistry degree book which I illegally took notes from in a bookshop .
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Ben.S.
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#33
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(Original post by MRLX69)
Sorry about my harsh reply . Well, it does. Dry or not dry. Ketones form a resonance structure making it vunerable to electrophilic and nucleophilic attacks. I found it out in some Chemistry degree book which I illegally took notes from in a bookshop .
It's called 'enolisation' - I told you!

Ben
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MRLX69
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Ben.S.)
It's called 'enolisation' - I told you!

Ben
enolisation only occurs when there's the presence of a base or a catalyst. It's when the resonance structure reacts. But I don't believe my compound contain water...... better ask the teacher to make sure. Thank you Ben!
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Ben.S.
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#35
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(Original post by MRLX69)
enolisation only occurs when there's the presence of a base or a catalyst. It's when the resonance structure reacts. But I don't believe my compound contain water...... better ask the teacher to make sure. Thank you Ben!
Enolisation takes place in acid or base, really!

Ben
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MRLX69
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Ben.S.)
Enolisation takes place in acid or base, really!

Ben
Well, I'm a bit shakey now but I would believe so. I have both the "Base-catalysed mechanism for keto-enol tautomerism" and the "Acid-catalysed mechanism for keto-enol tautomerism" right in front of me.
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