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Can I study maths without further maths at a top 10 uni?

When picking my A levels I didn't consider further maths as an option.
Sadly I am massively regretting that now; I'm debating between maths and economics (predicted Econ A*, Bio A* and Maths A*) but it seems that the majority of unis require further maths for the study of maths. I didn't realise this at the time of picking my A levels, or I would have chosen it.

Specifically, the economics and maths course at LSE; does anyone have any knowledge of people getting in without studying further maths at A level? I know I would be behind on the degree but that's not a bother of mine.

If not, do all top 10/Russell group unis require further for maths and econ? Are there any other options?
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Marc.12345
When picking my A levels I didn't consider further maths as an option.
Sadly I am massively regretting that now; I'm debating between maths and economics (predicted Econ A*, Bio A* and Maths A*) but it seems that the majority of unis require further maths for the study of maths. I didn't realise this at the time of picking my A levels, or I would have chosen it.

Specifically, the economics and maths course at LSE; does anyone have any knowledge of people getting in without studying further maths at A level? I know I would be behind on the degree but that's not a bother of mine.

If not, do all top 10/Russell group unis require further for maths and econ? Are there any other options?

Not all RG unis require FM. For example, Liverpool only want ABB with the A in maths. As to "top 10", that depends on how you define it. You need to do some research.

LSE are explicit in stating that if your school offer FM, and yours do, then you must take it so that's a write off.
I can't think of any uni that requires FM for Econs.

Maths though is obviously different. And something I've been looking at for my kids (happy to share it here).

The ones that springs straight to mind that don't require FM (UK Unis as ranked on QS 2022 Maths Rankings) are

Edinburgh QS Rank 5 (4 year degree course though).
A Levels: Mathematics at A*. Your Mathematics qualifications must have been achieved no more than two academic years prior to entry. GCSEs: English at C or 4.

Bristol QS Rank 9
A-level standard offer A*A*A including A* in Mathematics and A in another mathematics-related subject, or A*AA including A*A (in any order) in Mathematics and Further Mathematics
Mathematics-related subjects include Biology; Chemistry; Computer Science; Economics; and Physics. STEP paper achievement may be included as part of an alternative offer.

Queen Mary QS Rank 12

Grades ABB at A-Level. This must include grade A or above in A-Level Mathematics. Excludes General Studies.

Unis below Queen Mary up to the top 20 on the list that I haven't looked at closely include Heriot-Watt/Birmingham/Glasgow/Leeds/Southampton/Durham/Lancaster/Exeter
Reply 3
Original post by ageshallnot
Not all RG unis require FM. For example, Liverpool only want ABB with the A in maths. As to "top 10", that depends on how you define it. You need to do some research.

LSE are explicit in stating that if your school offer FM, and yours do, then you must take it so that's a write off.


by top 10 I literally just mean the top 10 in the UK university rankings (https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings)
Thanks for the input though.
Original post by Marc.12345
by top 10 I literally just mean the top 10 in the UK university rankings (https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings)
Thanks for the input though.


Well the CUG is a decent enough guide, but is by no means the only ranking organisation.
Reply 5
Original post by Marc.12345
by top 10 I literally just mean the top 10 in the UK university rankings (https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings)
Thanks for the input though.

the "top 10" one year won't necessarily be "the top 10" the next year - although you can pretty much guarantee that COWI will always be near the top for Maths - but I really wouldn't base your uni choice purely on rankings.

Start from the qualifications you expect to get, look at a few unis that accept those subjects (i.e. without FM) and then look at their course makeup - modules studied; balance of coursework / exams; options for computing or other applied stuff if that's what interests you; decide on campus vs city; look at student experiences etc and then decide where you'll be happy to spend 3 years studying :smile:
Reply 6
Original post by Marc.12345
by top 10 I literally just mean the top 10 in the UK university rankings (https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings)
Thanks for the input though.

WHy are you trusting these League tables? None of them can be replicated and they are all flawed.
your pickings are somewhat slim with any sensible definition of "top 10".

I don't think someone looking for a specifically maths course should go to LSE, it really seemed like a stats & econ course with some pure on the side. It is more appropriately viewed as a competitor to say MORSE at Warwick. I don't know anything about LSE admissions but if they state that FM is required it's most likely they will just reject you off the bat. MORSE might accept you if you get a 2 in STEP or a good TMUA result, but they say this is for people who couldn't take FM. (you could ask about this)

Good maths universities that don't need FM include Birmingham, Lancaster, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leeds. These are not really "top tier" per se but very very strong "second tier" and plenty go on from these universities to postgraduate study at "top tier" universities. (I know nothing about the Nottingham course but I know someone who went on to do a PhD at an Ivy League university after Notts undergrad and some others from there who have gone on to do PhDs at Warwick and Oxbridge, so these universities are far from something to turn your nose at. Several people from KCL went on to do Part III) Not to say you'll want to do PG study, but it's indicative of the course breadth/depth at the very least.

If you can do an AS in Further Maths this would open up universities like Bath.

Don't fuss whether unis are RG or not, Lancaster and Bath are both better than eg Liverpool, Sheffield, QMUL.
(edited 7 months ago)
Original post by Marc.12345
When picking my A levels I didn't consider further maths as an option.
Sadly I am massively regretting that now; I'm debating between maths and economics (predicted Econ A*, Bio A* and Maths A*) but it seems that the majority of unis require further maths for the study of maths. I didn't realise this at the time of picking my A levels, or I would have chosen it.

Specifically, the economics and maths course at LSE; does anyone have any knowledge of people getting in without studying further maths at A level? I know I would be behind on the degree but that's not a bother of mine.

If not, do all top 10/Russell group unis require further for maths and econ? Are there any other options?


If you dont have FM and your school offered it you wont get an offer if it is a requirement. LSE particulary.

That said there are many very good universities that dont require FM. Look into courses in detail. There are loads that dont outside the top 1/2 dozen or so.
Funnily enough, Oxford doesn’t require you to have Further Maths (and they are a top 10 uni)

They very rarely make offers to people without further maths but it is possible…. You just need a very good score in the MAT and shine at interview

Perhaps that’s an option to consider (though to do well in MAT you need to be capable of passing FM and have done additional studying but you have 3 or 4 months to do that in if you are serious)
Original post by Johnny Valentine
Funnily enough, Oxford doesn’t require you to have Further Maths (and they are a top 10 uni)

They very rarely make offers to people without further maths but it is possible…. You just need a very good score in the MAT and shine at interview

Perhaps that’s an option to consider (though to do well in MAT you need to be capable of passing FM and have done additional studying but you have 3 or 4 months to do that in if you are serious)

This is technically true but only around 1 percent of the people who get in dont have further maths (that is if they had the option to do it), its basically a requirement.
Original post by mxtt_helm
This is technically true but only around 1 percent of the people who get in dont have further maths (that is if they had the option to do it), its basically a requirement.


So we’re agreed? Possible but highly unlikely (it’s a lot lot less than 1% by the way…. Closer to only maybe 1 offer a year but still possible)
Reply 12
Original post by Muttley79
WHy are you trusting these League tables? None of them can be replicated and they are all flawed.


don't take it to heart mate.
I literally just use it as a basic guide as to what unis are good.
It's not the be all and end all.
Original post by Marc.12345
don't take it to heart mate.
I literally just use it as a basic guide as to what unis are good.
It's not the be all and end all.


I'm not your 'mate' and the tables tell you nothing ... certainly not which are good for you.
Reply 14
Original post by Marc.12345
xxx

You're actually arguing with a teacher - would you go up to your teacher and call them "mate" :biggrin:
Reply 15
Original post by davros
You're actually arguing with a teacher - would you go up to your teacher and call them "mate" :biggrin:


yes
(Original post by Marc.12345)yes

well that just shows your lack of respect. The fact you are arguing with an experienced Maths teacher who is trying to give you advice really sums you up. The league rankings mean absolutely nothing but you with no experience believe them. Let us take the case of Aberystwyth.
CUG 39th
GUG 45th
Mail 86th

Which is right. Why is there such a difference. This just highlights how unreliable it is to use league tables and this isnt the only discrepancy.

Take Lancaster
CUG 10th
GUG 11th
Mail 29th

Kings
CUG 24th
GUG 23rd
Mail 9th

It is even worse when you consider international table like QS and THE which favour older universities in large cities over universities in smaller cities.
Reply 17
Original post by swanseajack1
(Original post by Marc.12345)yes

well that just shows your lack of respect. The fact you are arguing with an experienced Maths teacher who is trying to give you advice really sums you up. The league rankings mean absolutely nothing but you with no experience believe them. Let us take the case of Aberystwyth.
CUG 39th
GUG 45th
Mail 86th

Which is right. Why is there such a difference. This just highlights how unreliable it is to use league tables and this isnt the only discrepancy.

Take Lancaster
CUG 10th
GUG 11th
Mail 29th

Kings
CUG 24th
GUG 23rd
Mail 9th

It is even worse when you consider international table like QS and THE which favour older universities in large cities over universities in smaller cities.


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(edited 5 months ago)
Hi there,

Course requirements alter uni to uni so not all the universities will require further maths for this degree. Furthermore, it's good to hear you are not too worried about being behind as if it is not required then the course should be able to bring you up to speed provided you put in the work required.

I would go through the universities websites (ones that you are interested in applying to) and have a look at their individual course requirements. Personally I wouldnt recommend applying to a university if they do require further maths a-level as you may just be wasting a spot on your application.

Good luck!
- Sophie (uni of Bath)

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