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A-level Classical Civilisation Study Group 2023-2024

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Reply 100

If the question was on how virgil portrays war for either a 20m or 30m, what would you guys' points be ? War causes suffering - easy, but any idea as to two others?
Perhaps war gets glorified, but I'm struggling to think of any prominent book examples.
Thanks :smile:

Reply 101

Original post
by mg10
If the question was on how virgil portrays war for either a 20m or 30m, what would you guys' points be ? War causes suffering - easy, but any idea as to two others?
Perhaps war gets glorified, but I'm struggling to think of any prominent book examples.
Thanks :smile:


I would probably link it to how war is portrayed in The Iliad, as the Aeneid has Homeric influence. It has definitely shown the glorification of war and heroism. Aeneas could be shown as a Homeric hero as well as Turnus, because one of the Homeric qualities is to be good in battle
The suffering from people of all angles of war (soldiers, women, gods, civilians), an example could be The Fall of Troy- women are being captured, men are being killed, houses destroyed.
You could also talk about how brutal war is- an example that comes to mind is Nisus and Euryalus because of the way virgil describes the death of Euryalus.
Bringing in a theme here- how war separates mothers from sons and sons from fathers. Polites is killed in front of Priam and Hecabe, separation of Evander and Pallas, and Ascanius and Aeneas.
hopefully this helps a bit. The Aeneid is not my strong point but these were some things that we discussed in class

Reply 102

Original post
by Phoebexsp
I would probably link it to how war is portrayed in The Iliad, as the Aeneid has Homeric influence. It has definitely shown the glorification of war and heroism. Aeneas could be shown as a Homeric hero as well as Turnus, because one of the Homeric qualities is to be good in battle
The suffering from people of all angles of war (soldiers, women, gods, civilians), an example could be The Fall of Troy- women are being captured, men are being killed, houses destroyed.
You could also talk about how brutal war is- an example that comes to mind is Nisus and Euryalus because of the way virgil describes the death of Euryalus.
Bringing in a theme here- how war separates mothers from sons and sons from fathers. Polites is killed in front of Priam and Hecabe, separation of Evander and Pallas, and Ascanius and Aeneas.
hopefully this helps a bit. The Aeneid is not my strong point but these were some things that we discussed in class

Thank you so much !!❤️

Reply 103

Good Luck everyone for tomorrow !!, 🙂

Reply 104

Original post
by mg10
If the question was on how virgil portrays war for either a 20m or 30m, what would you guys' points be ? War causes suffering - easy, but any idea as to two others?
Perhaps war gets glorified, but I'm struggling to think of any prominent book examples.
Thanks :smile:

The erosion of traditional values. In the midst of war it is easy for the distinctly good Roman values to be lost - pietas, clementia, severitas. War is passionate and violent, and severitas even for Aeneas and the stoical Latinus (in Book 7, at least) has no place. Roman values are replaced with Greek values of extreme emotion - a Homeric heroism explicitly condemned in Books 2, 5, and 6.

The impact of warfare on Aeneas. Complete tragedy in Book 2 with the loss of Creusa where he goes into a burning city to look for her, followed by the onslaught of a fate he knows nothing about. He does not want war - the attempted peace treaty in Book 11 demonstrates this enough. Warfare also brings out his hated furor - Book 10 and Book 12. In Book 11 he even brings in human sacrifices as he weeps, the true price of war. It completely breaks Aeneas down - the protagonist and who is supposed to be a stand-in for Augustus.

The death of youth and love. Nisus and Euryalus, basically everyone in Troy (e.g. Deiphobus in the underworld, the men Aeneas gathers that kill themselves, Polites), Pallas, Lausus. You could also mention Turnus, Camilla, Juturna, and some of the people mentioned during Turnus’ attack in Book 9. There’s a lot to say about them and the way their deaths are described!! The flower motif remains strong

The impacts of war on women specifically. Euryalus’ mother, Creusa, Amata, Lavinia, the Trojan women. They all have extreme and adverse reactions to warfare that also undermine their traditional roles as women - when Camilla dies the Latin women use her as their ‘example’ and hurl ‘missiles’. A threat to patriarchal hegemony

‘Damage’ to father-son relationships. Pallas/Evander and Pallas’ funeral, Pallas/Aeneas, Aeneas/Anchises, Priam/Polites, even Caesar/Augustus. The most striking example for me is always Lausus and Mezentius. When Lausus throws himself in front of the blade Aeneas tells him the love for his father is ‘deceiving’ him - just as it had moved him in the wrong direction in Book 5. When Lausus does die, Aeneas is not referred to with any grand epithet or simile, he is simply the ‘son of Anchises’ - father-son values are constant, and broken down to their basest levels in war.

Dido isn’t necessarily linked to war but you can also talk about the curse that she gives before her death which acts as an explanation for the Punic wars

Then obviously undermine all that arguing by saying that ultimately war is necessary for Rome to be founded. The shield, the most striking example of complete glorification, is a weapon of war, carrying scenes of the battle of Actium. War will also create ultimate peace, eventually, with Augustus’ Pax Romana. Hercules and Cacus is also a good small example to say that the text in some ways justifies warfare and furor if it is being used to defeat a great evil (Turnus, Mark Antony, though the extent to which Turnus is a sympathetic character can obviously be debated and I think he is).


I hope this helps! I don’t think warfare will come up since it has a lot in the past but I won’t mind if it does because I love talking about Nisus and Euryalus :-]

Reply 105

Any ideas for Aeneid/odyssey 30 markers?

Reply 106

Original post
by tbhcreature

The erosion of traditional values. In the midst of war it is easy for the distinctly good Roman values to be lost - pietas, clementia, severitas. War is passionate and violent, and severitas even for Aeneas and the stoical Latinus (in Book 7, at least) has no place. Roman values are replaced with Greek values of extreme emotion - a Homeric heroism explicitly condemned in Books 2, 5, and 6.

The impact of warfare on Aeneas. Complete tragedy in Book 2 with the loss of Creusa where he goes into a burning city to look for her, followed by the onslaught of a fate he knows nothing about. He does not want war - the attempted peace treaty in Book 11 demonstrates this enough. Warfare also brings out his hated furor - Book 10 and Book 12. In Book 11 he even brings in human sacrifices as he weeps, the true price of war. It completely breaks Aeneas down - the protagonist and who is supposed to be a stand-in for Augustus.

The death of youth and love. Nisus and Euryalus, basically everyone in Troy (e.g. Deiphobus in the underworld, the men Aeneas gathers that kill themselves, Polites), Pallas, Lausus. You could also mention Turnus, Camilla, Juturna, and some of the people mentioned during Turnus’ attack in Book 9. There’s a lot to say about them and the way their deaths are described!! The flower motif remains strong

The impacts of war on women specifically. Euryalus’ mother, Creusa, Amata, Lavinia, the Trojan women. They all have extreme and adverse reactions to warfare that also undermine their traditional roles as women - when Camilla dies the Latin women use her as their ‘example’ and hurl ‘missiles’. A threat to patriarchal hegemony

‘Damage’ to father-son relationships. Pallas/Evander and Pallas’ funeral, Pallas/Aeneas, Aeneas/Anchises, Priam/Polites, even Caesar/Augustus. The most striking example for me is always Lausus and Mezentius. When Lausus throws himself in front of the blade Aeneas tells him the love for his father is ‘deceiving’ him - just as it had moved him in the wrong direction in Book 5. When Lausus does die, Aeneas is not referred to with any grand epithet or simile, he is simply the ‘son of Anchises’ - father-son values are constant, and broken down to their basest levels in war.

Dido isn’t necessarily linked to war but you can also talk about the curse that she gives before her death which acts as an explanation for the Punic wars

Then obviously undermine all that arguing by saying that ultimately war is necessary for Rome to be founded. The shield, the most striking example of complete glorification, is a weapon of war, carrying scenes of the battle of Actium. War will also create ultimate peace, eventually, with Augustus’ Pax Romana. Hercules and Cacus is also a good small example to say that the text in some ways justifies warfare and furor if it is being used to defeat a great evil (Turnus, Mark Antony, though the extent to which Turnus is a sympathetic character can obviously be debated and I think he is).


I hope this helps! I don’t think warfare will come up since it has a lot in the past but I won’t mind if it does because I love talking about Nisus and Euryalus :-]

Thank you so much !!😘

Reply 107

do you guys think I need to revise relationships between men and women for the Aeneid ??, just cramming stuff now lol, Thank you !! :smile:

Reply 108

omg how did everyone find it!

Reply 109

Original post
by swift513
omg how did everyone find it!

THE 20s WERE AWFUL but aeneid 30 was so sexy

(i do ody)

Reply 110

Original post
by alecks
THE 20s WERE AWFUL but aeneid 30 was so sexy
(i do ody)
Agreed the 20s were awful, I was blanking hard and I didn't expect to see a woman question for the Aeneid 30 marker so I was a lil unprepared.

Reply 111

Original post
by SilverJet
Agreed the 20s were awful, I was blanking hard and I didn't expect to see a woman question for the Aeneid 30 marker so I was a lil unprepared.

the 20s were just so weird. i had to do a double take on the aeneid one

Reply 112

Odyssey 20 marker not the best but the rest were good

Reply 113

Original post
by swift513
omg how did everyone find it!

the iliad 20 marker was phrased really weirdly but overall it was good! the iliad 30 marker was lush haha

Reply 114

Original post
by liv2005
the iliad 20 marker was phrased really weirdly but overall it was good! the iliad 30 marker was lush haha

yes omfg thank god someone else who did it!! i felt like the counterargument was pretty clear

Reply 115

odyssey section, was bad, the passage had like 1 thing heroic, Aeneid one was good, but ran out of time for the 30 marker for Aeneid and didn't get to do a counterargument. oops, hopefully the grade boundaries will be good. does anyone know how hard it is to get a B in classics ??

Hope everyones went well !!

Reply 116

20 markers were a little weird which meant I spent too much time on them so 30 mark was a bit rushed (esp my counter bc I did NOT go into enough detail on father son relationships) but aeneid 30 mark was overall gorgeous.. yes women yes juno yes yes creusa . its ok will make up for it in other papers if ocr remains nice. 10 mark passages were beautiful too

Reply 117

what did people put for the ody 10 and 20 i was really struggling to figure out how ody was heroic (or admirable) in that.... just a bit of a hubristic c*** imo and then the 20 was a disaster 😭😭 at least aeneid 30 was klm

Reply 118

20 marker for ody was a war crime

Reply 119

Original post
by alecks
what did people put for the ody 10 and 20 i was really struggling to figure out how ody was heroic (or admirable) in that.... just a bit of a hubristic c*** imo and then the 20 was a disaster 😭😭 at least aeneid 30 was klm

I literally just wrote a paragraph as I didn't have time to finish it, I just put he's presented as a homeric hero as he shouts his name to get kleos, which is also selfish as it put him and his crew in danger

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