[Official thread] Hamas-Israel Conflict
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Reply 1400
Original post
by lalexmYou do realise that the whole of Gaza is being attacked, right? Where exactly do you want the millions that live there to go? Even refugee camps are being bombed. No where is safe. The vast majority of civilian deaths are not due to Hamas stopping them from leaving. That is blatant lie by Israel to try to justify the civilian deaths.
Large swathes of houses near the border are being demolished. The plan is not to rebuild them. They want to reduce the land that Gazans live on and push them further from the Israeli borders. That is not a secret.
Large swathes of houses near the border are being demolished. The plan is not to rebuild them. They want to reduce the land that Gazans live on and push them further from the Israeli borders. That is not a secret.
How many millions have evacuated ukraine taken in by european countries? 5 or 6 million. How many Palestinians have been taken in by their local countries? None
Saything that many can't be evacuated is not true especially when isreal have called for it and given time for it.
Reply 1401
Original post
by Guru JasonHow many millions have evacuated ukraine taken in by european countries? 5 or 6 million. How many Palestinians have been taken in by their local countries? None
Saything that many can't be evacuated is not true especially when isreal have called for it and given time for it.
Saything that many can't be evacuated is not true especially when isreal have called for it and given time for it.
This question has been asked to the surrounding countries and there is a clear answer. Those countries can take in Palestinian refugees but have chosen not to because there is a high chance that the Netanyahu Government wont allow them to return. This perception has also been reinforced by Bibi’s recent comments of refusing to accept a 2 state solution.
This has happened repeatedly in the past and Palestinians taken in by Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Nigeria, Kuwait, Egypt, UAE, Oman, Saudi, Iran and many countries across the region were refused to go back home. It is well documented.
“Some 210,000 Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon, most still in the refugee camps set up for their forebears who arrived during the Nakba in 1948”
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/1/palestinian-refugees-in-lebanon-mourn-fear-for-family-in-war-torn-gaza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon
“Most Palestinian ancestors came to Jordan as Palestinian refugees between 1947 and 1967. Today, most Palestinians and their descendants in Jordan are fully naturalised, making Jordan the only Arab country to fully integrate the Palestinian refugees of 1948.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Jordan#:~:text=Most%20Palestinian%20ancestors%20came%20to,the%20Palestinian%20refugees%20of%201948.
“Prior to the outbreak of the civil war, there were over 526,000 Palestinians living in Syria, refugees driven off their land with the establishment of Israel in 1948 and their descendants.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Syria
Reply 1402
The points raised here underscore the tension between legal obligations and moral expectations. It's clear that while the law may not compel certain actions, societal and moral pressures can weigh heavily on individuals, particularly those in high-profile positions or with close ties to political leadership. The debate around Yair's situation seems to encapsulate this dilemma, highlighting the varied perspectives on what individuals owe to their country, especially in times of conflict.
Reply 1403
16
Original post
by Kathy89Yes. The whole Gaza should've been evacuated. IDF attack area by area. They are attacking Han Yunes now, while still continuing the attack on the north, which should be empty since the begining of the war. Han Yunes was meant to be completely evacuated a week ago.
All Gaza is called refugee camps and not villages. So yes, refugee camps are bombed.
As far as I know, the plan is to rebuild yew, to rebuild it 1km from the boarder, which is for the safety of Israel citizens and Egypt, Qatar, USA and Saudi Arabia are ready to invest in it already and completely agree with the plan. Building proper infrastructure will be much more beneficial than giving more space to live in. Unlike Hamas, Israel and their allies will build infrastructures and not weapon storages and rocket launchers.
All Gaza is called refugee camps and not villages. So yes, refugee camps are bombed.
As far as I know, the plan is to rebuild yew, to rebuild it 1km from the boarder, which is for the safety of Israel citizens and Egypt, Qatar, USA and Saudi Arabia are ready to invest in it already and completely agree with the plan. Building proper infrastructure will be much more beneficial than giving more space to live in. Unlike Hamas, Israel and their allies will build infrastructures and not weapon storages and rocket launchers.
At least you and Guru Jason are being honest. As many in the far right Israeli government have said, they want Gaza cleared of Palestinians so Israel can have it for itself. Once the Palestinians are out, their would be zero chance that Israel would allow them back in, when Israel controls the sea, air and borders. No chance. After this war they even plan to control the tiny land border with Egypt.
It's also staggering that you think it is perfectly okay to destroy all Gazan homes within 1km of the border and to reduce their lands further.
Reply 1404
Original post
by Kathy89Not 75 as they've been controlling Gaza only since 2006. However, any previous government did the same to the civilians of Gaza. Israel was giving them money to build and maintain infrastructures all the time Bibi was the PM. All the Arab countries helped them financially. Israel allowed them to work in Israel up until October 8th. The oppression you are talking about is similar to saying USA oppressing Mexicans because they have roots with the natives who were there before USA was established.
I agree that what's wrong is wrong. I agree that IDF is acting too harsh and not caring for civilians ... Do you have any other practical solution that won't put more Israeli soldiers in danger yet be good for innocent civilians, and only the innocent ones?
I agree that what's wrong is wrong. I agree that IDF is acting too harsh and not caring for civilians ... Do you have any other practical solution that won't put more Israeli soldiers in danger yet be good for innocent civilians, and only the innocent ones?
It has been 75 years since Israel existed and an indefinite blockade has been imposed since 2007. The money they were given wasn’t used for the intended purposes, I agree, but why are the civilians paying for the crimes of their government?
The case of US and Mexico is different. They both exist in a 2 state solution. That is what should happen with Palestine and Israel imo.
Well Israel could start by allowing food and medical aid to enter Gaza? Collective punishment is a war crime. They could use more targeted strategies rather than blowing up whole buildings. They could not shoot at unarmed innocent civilians holding white flags. They could not use their tanks to destroy graves of the deceased Palestinians.
Reply 1405
20
Original post
by spectrum84It has been 75 years since Israel existed and an indefinite blockade has been imposed since 2007. The money they were given wasn’t used for the intended purposes, I agree, but why are the civilians paying for the crimes of their government?
The case of US and Mexico is different. They both exist in a 2 state solution. That is what should happen with Palestine and Israel imo.
Well Israel could start by allowing food and medical aid to enter Gaza? Collective punishment is a war crime. They could use more targeted strategies rather than blowing up whole buildings. They could not shoot at unarmed innocent civilians holding white flags. They could not use their tanks to destroy graves of the deceased Palestinians.
The case of US and Mexico is different. They both exist in a 2 state solution. That is what should happen with Palestine and Israel imo.
Well Israel could start by allowing food and medical aid to enter Gaza? Collective punishment is a war crime. They could use more targeted strategies rather than blowing up whole buildings. They could not shoot at unarmed innocent civilians holding white flags. They could not use their tanks to destroy graves of the deceased Palestinians.
Using more targeted strategy will lead to a longer war, meaning more Israeli soldiers dying, more money spent, longer time Palestinians won't have a home and doesn't mean less Palestinians dying. While it may seem that less will die directly from Israeli fire, it doesn't mean that less will die from the conditions, from fights between themselves or Hamas, from occasional violence against Israeli soldiers. This won't assure less innocent deaths in the long run.
Food and medical aid is allowed but inspected by Israel. If something is not entering it means that Hamas tried to sneak a missile inside an aid truck.
Reply 1406
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Original post
by Kathy89Using more targeted strategy will lead to a longer war, meaning more Israeli soldiers dying, more money spent, longer time Palestinians won't have a home and doesn't mean less Palestinians dying. While it may seem that less will die directly from Israeli fire, it doesn't mean that less will die from the conditions, from fights between themselves or Hamas, from occasional violence against Israeli soldiers. This won't assure less innocent deaths in the long run.
Food and medical aid is allowed but inspected by Israel. If something is not entering it means that Hamas tried to sneak a missile inside an aid truck.
Food and medical aid is allowed but inspected by Israel. If something is not entering it means that Hamas tried to sneak a missile inside an aid truck.
Completely disagree. Using a more more targeted strategy would mean a lot less innocent civilians being killed, and a lot less starvation.
Is it possible that the ICJ, the US and most of the rest of the world that is calling for Israel to change it's tactics to save lives is correct, and that Kathy89 from TSR is wrong?
Reply 1407
Original post
by Kathy89Using more targeted strategy will lead to a longer war, meaning more Israeli soldiers dying, more money spent, longer time Palestinians won't have a home and doesn't mean less Palestinians dying. While it may seem that less will die directly from Israeli fire, it doesn't mean that less will die from the conditions, from fights between themselves or Hamas, from occasional violence against Israeli soldiers. This won't assure less innocent deaths in the long run.
Food and medical aid is allowed but inspected by Israel. If something is not entering it means that Hamas tried to sneak a missile inside an aid truck.
Food and medical aid is allowed but inspected by Israel. If something is not entering it means that Hamas tried to sneak a missile inside an aid truck.
The only way to prevent more civilian deaths is for IDF to stop carpet bombing Gaza. There will be less soldier and civilian deaths. The IDF don’t care about Palestinians having a home, they want them gone from Palestine so they can expand Israel’s borders.
How on earth does Hamas sneak missiles into food trucks if the borders are so tightly controlled? Israel just want Palestinians to starve.
Reply 1408
Original post
by lalexmCompletely disagree. Using a more more targeted strategy would mean a lot less innocent civilians being killed, and a lot less starvation.
Is it possible that the ICJ, the US and most of the rest of the world that is calling for Israel to change it's tactics to save lives is correct, and that Kathy89 from TSR is wrong?
Is it possible that the ICJ, the US and most of the rest of the world that is calling for Israel to change it's tactics to save lives is correct, and that Kathy89 from TSR is wrong?
I mean yes, just cos something is stated by the majority doesn't make it fact.
Reply 1409
16
Original post
by Guru JasonI mean yes, just cos something is stated by the majority doesn't make it fact.
I was probably being a bit vague when I said the "majority of the world". Is there even a single county in the world other than Israel that thinks what Israel is doing is okay? That its tactics are fine and don't need changing?
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 1410
20
Original post
by lalexmCompletely disagree. Using a more more targeted strategy would mean a lot less innocent civilians being killed, and a lot less starvation.
Is it possible that the ICJ, the US and most of the rest of the world that is calling for Israel to change it's tactics to save lives is correct, and that Kathy89 from TSR is wrong?
Is it possible that the ICJ, the US and most of the rest of the world that is calling for Israel to change it's tactics to save lives is correct, and that Kathy89 from TSR is wrong?
Israel is using these tactics in Lebanon, Syria and Iran now for specific targets. However, it is nearly impossible to use the same tactics against terrorist infrastructures like in Gaza because they are using almost every building and building as a part of their infrastructure (storage, tunnel entry, headquarters etc....).
Reply 1411
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Original post
by Kathy89Israel is using these tactics in Lebanon, Syria and Iran now for specific targets. However, it is nearly impossible to use the same tactics against terrorist infrastructures like in Gaza because they are using almost every building and building as a part of their infrastructure (storage, tunnel entry, headquarters etc....).
Not true. Hamas are not using every building. That is just an IDF excuse when they decimate entire neighbourhoods. The vast majority of homes, are just civilian homes. They do not have tunnels under them, nor have weapons stores, nor are terrorist cells. Even the major hospitals that the IDF claimed were terror headquarters proved to be nothing of the sort when the IDF entered them.
Reply 1412
Original post
by spectrum84Regardless of the reason. You could argue Hamas is a response for 75 years of oppression before October 7th, does that justify what they’re doing? No.
Same goes for IDF. It doesn't matter the reason. What’s wrong is wrong, trying to justify it opens all sorts of doors.
Same goes for IDF. It doesn't matter the reason. What’s wrong is wrong, trying to justify it opens all sorts of doors.
Agreed.
Reply 1413
16
Extract from the BBC below. Could the intentions of the far right Israeli government be any clearer?
•
Israeli politicians and ministers have attended a conference calling for Israeli resettlement of the Gaza Strip and “voluntary migration” of the Palestinian population elsewhere. The prominent role of government figures in the far-right conference on Sunday appears to violate the international court of justice ruling last week that Israel must “take all measures within its power” to avoid acts of genocide in its war in Gaza, including the “prevention and punishment of genocidal rhetoric”. The White House described the comments as “irresponsible, reckless and incendiary”.
Reply 1414
21
Original post
by lalexmExtract from the BBC below. Could the intentions of the far right Israeli government be any clearer?
•
Israeli politicians and ministers have attended a conference calling for Israeli resettlement of the Gaza Strip and “voluntary migration” of the Palestinian population elsewhere. The prominent role of government figures in the far-right conference on Sunday appears to violate the international court of justice ruling last week that Israel must “take all measures within its power” to avoid acts of genocide in its war in Gaza, including the “prevention and punishment of genocidal rhetoric”. The White House described the comments as “irresponsible, reckless and incendiary”.
Most of Israel is against that, I think.
Israel would probably need to occupy Gaza in some form or another - for a while. After the UNRWA debacle, I don't think the UN can be fully relied on for security. A pan-Arab coalition government would be good. But with forces like Hamas, who wants to get involved in building a governance system that gives priority to health, education, society, and decent relations with neighbours. Egypt made getting rid of Gaza a condition of their peace deal. They are known to repeatedly bulldozed and demolish thousands of Palestinian homes to expand their Sinai buffer zone. Half of Jordan is of Palestinian-origin; but they don't want jihadists. The PA would be useless. They'd allow Hamas/Hezbollah organizations to operate within their borders, and then claim (like Lebanon) to be unable/not strong enough to control them.
For what's worth, I wish Israel didn't have the settlement program in the West Bank. That has undermined Israel's negotiating hand and caused more probs than its worth.
Reply 1415
20
Original post
by lalexmNot true. Hamas are not using every building. That is just an IDF excuse when they decimate entire neighbourhoods. The vast majority of homes, are just civilian homes. They do not have tunnels under them, nor have weapons stores, nor are terrorist cells. Even the major hospitals that the IDF claimed were terror headquarters proved to be nothing of the sort when the IDF entered them.
Proved by whom?
Reply 1416
20
Original post
by PythianMost of Israel is against that, I think.
Israel would probably need to occupy Gaza in some form or another - for a while. After the UNRWA debacle, I don't think the UN can be fully relied on for security. A pan-Arab coalition government would be good. But with forces like Hamas, who wants to get involved in building a governance system that gives priority to health, education, society, and decent relations with neighbours. Egypt made getting rid of Gaza a condition of their peace deal. They are known to repeatedly bulldozed and demolish thousands of Palestinian homes to expand their Sinai buffer zone. Half of Jordan is of Palestinian-origin; but they don't want jihadists. The PA would be useless. They'd allow Hamas/Hezbollah organizations to operate within their borders, and then claim (like Lebanon) to be unable/not strong enough to control them.
For what's worth, I wish Israel didn't have the settlement program in the West Bank. That has undermined Israel's negotiating hand and caused more probs than its worth.
Israel would probably need to occupy Gaza in some form or another - for a while. After the UNRWA debacle, I don't think the UN can be fully relied on for security. A pan-Arab coalition government would be good. But with forces like Hamas, who wants to get involved in building a governance system that gives priority to health, education, society, and decent relations with neighbours. Egypt made getting rid of Gaza a condition of their peace deal. They are known to repeatedly bulldozed and demolish thousands of Palestinian homes to expand their Sinai buffer zone. Half of Jordan is of Palestinian-origin; but they don't want jihadists. The PA would be useless. They'd allow Hamas/Hezbollah organizations to operate within their borders, and then claim (like Lebanon) to be unable/not strong enough to control them.
For what's worth, I wish Israel didn't have the settlement program in the West Bank. That has undermined Israel's negotiating hand and caused more probs than its worth.
Exactly.
Reply 1417
16
Original post
by Kathy89Proved by whom?
lol, there was thought it be only about 25,000 Hamas fighters in total, so you think they have storage and tunnels in all the 500,000 plus homes across Gaza? Do they store 1 bullet in each home?
Reply 1418
16
Original post
by PythianMost of Israel is against that, I think.
Israel would probably need to occupy Gaza in some form or another - for a while. After the UNRWA debacle, I don't think the UN can be fully relied on for security. A pan-Arab coalition government would be good. But with forces like Hamas, who wants to get involved in building a governance system that gives priority to health, education, society, and decent relations with neighbours. Egypt made getting rid of Gaza a condition of their peace deal. They are known to repeatedly bulldozed and demolish thousands of Palestinian homes to expand their Sinai buffer zone. Half of Jordan is of Palestinian-origin; but they don't want jihadists. The PA would be useless. They'd allow Hamas/Hezbollah organizations to operate within their borders, and then claim (like Lebanon) to be unable/not strong enough to control them.
For what's worth, I wish Israel didn't have the settlement program in the West Bank. That has undermined Israel's negotiating hand and caused more probs than its worth.
Israel would probably need to occupy Gaza in some form or another - for a while. After the UNRWA debacle, I don't think the UN can be fully relied on for security. A pan-Arab coalition government would be good. But with forces like Hamas, who wants to get involved in building a governance system that gives priority to health, education, society, and decent relations with neighbours. Egypt made getting rid of Gaza a condition of their peace deal. They are known to repeatedly bulldozed and demolish thousands of Palestinian homes to expand their Sinai buffer zone. Half of Jordan is of Palestinian-origin; but they don't want jihadists. The PA would be useless. They'd allow Hamas/Hezbollah organizations to operate within their borders, and then claim (like Lebanon) to be unable/not strong enough to control them.
For what's worth, I wish Israel didn't have the settlement program in the West Bank. That has undermined Israel's negotiating hand and caused more probs than its worth.
Hope you are correct on that. I've been critical of the Israel government and the IDF tactics. I don't know what the Israeli general pubic thinks though, so I've said nothing against them.
Reply 1419
Original post
by lalexmlol, there was thought it be only about 25,000 Hamas fighters in total, so you think they have storage and tunnels in all the 500,000 plus homes across Gaza? Do they store 1 bullet in each home?
Maybe the single bullet in each home is in case a member of Hamas need to rush in and take a human shield, that seems to be the prevailing theory in this thread.
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