how could anyone be pro-israel?

id say thats pretty weird since a genocide is occuring so the death of innocent civilians having no impact on you is genuinely concerning

Your not a good person

what?

Sorry sent to wrong person

oh ok no worries

I understand the sentiment if things are as you say. however that does not always appear so. Israel does not hold all the cards.
as have tried to suggest. there was an argument that addresses all points made, in my opinion. I would appreciate a response

putting in spoiler changes the paste, so I will leave it untouched to preserve readability.


Before even discussing the reasons said by others (which are pretty severe to begin with), the Hamas charter itself speaks volumes about why Hamas does the horrors we have seen (raping babies, shooting kids in front of their mother, etc.), along with countless other acts of terror.
(Full text avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to thecall of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... are no more thana means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of  Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.' (Articl 13);'

The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media;

They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... They stood behind World War I ...and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. (Article 32)

This is the source of the saying 'From the River to the Sea'. As we shall see later, the people protesting think that it means resistance to Israeli terror, but it means religious death.



The HAMA"S regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.'(Article 32)


Already we see that the actions of Hamas have nothing to do with being free from the Jewish STATE, rather they wish to be free of JEWS. This is apparent from the several calls they make from the Hamas manifesto to all arabs around the world to murder jews.


This makes a separation from the people defending the Gazans right to freedom, and Hamas. People constantly equate the Gazan civilians and Hamas (as well as the people in charge of the PLO, which we will get to shortly), which is mistaken. Hamas does not represent freedom-seeking arabs.

Point 1: We can see from the get-go that the actions of Hamas here were not to get peace and prosperity in Gaza, not to build infrastructure, and not to receive an Arab state (in the conventional sense), rather it was to see a LACK OF A JEWISH STATE. (Please refer below for a response for those claims.)

Now to address the claims of people BESIDES Hamas, like the western Media who claim that Hamas is doing this as a RESULT of decades of oppression from the Israeli Government, we must go into the history of this land for the Past couple thousand years.


HISTORICAL RIGHTS TO THE LAND/ISRAEL STOLE IT



I really don't understand how people say that the arabs were on the land of Palestine first. Disregarding the fact that "Palestine" as a people is a mixture of immigrants from Mongolia, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Arab Countries surrounding it etc., and also they only immigrated a couple of decades before 1948, where is the claim that the Palestinians were there first substantiated?

Point 2: History acknowledges that Jews historically had the land of israel from either Joshua (1400 BC) or at least the kingdom of David (c. 1000 BC). There were 2 temples on Jewish land. Roman exile (around 70 CE) gave the name Palestine from the Philistines, and Islam was started over 600 years later.<

The Al-aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is nowhere near the one Mentioned in the Qur'an, and even if it was Muhammed certainly didn't visit it since it was built in 682 (he died around 632).

2. JEWS DIDN'T GIVE ENOUGH LAND/PREVENTED AN ARAB STATE (PLEASE READ)

This is simply preposterous. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration promised the Jews present-day Israel and Jordan, Called the Mandate of Palestine. in 1920, Arabs began the Nebi Mussah pogroms out of anger, which prompted the British to say in 1922 that Trans-Jordan would be made an Arab state. In 1937 the Peel Commission (headed by Lord William Peel) suggested that Jews give up everything besides the coast of israel, and some territory up north.

This was rejected. in may of 1964 the PLO was founded by arabs (who still had control of the Gaza strip and the west bank), which was made solely to call for the destruction of Israel as a state. in 1967 the Khartoum Resolution was published by the Fourth Arab Summit, which included the Three No's: No peace, No recognition of Israel, and No negotiations with Israel.

This prompted the 6-day war, where it beat 7 countries in a week. They got back lots of land back from that war.

In 1973 there were more unprompted wars. in 1979, the Sinai was given back to egypt. in 1993 the Oslo accords promised steps to a Palestinian State, with several concessions given. In 2000, Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat over 90% control over the west bank, among other concessions. Without a counter-offer, Arafat walked away and started the Second intifada The list keeps going on and on.

Balfour Dec:https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/balfour.asp\

Arab Pogroms<br></div><div>https://www.historycentral.com/Israel/1920ArabRiotsYaffo.html<br></div><div>Peel

Commission
<div>https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIs...e%20government.

https://justvision.org/glossary/palestine-liberation-organization-plo<br></div><div>Khartoum

https://www.sixdaywar.org/immediate-...s-of-khartoum/

Oslo Accords
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords


Second Intifada
https://www.britannica.com/event/sec...n%203%20to%201.

Point 3: Arabs have walked away from every single attempt to make an independent Arab State, so There cannot be any blame on the Jews for not giving up/stealing land from the Arabs.


3. GAZA IS OCCUPIED TERRITORY, UNFAIRLY OPPRESSED



Again, ridiculous, based off the fact that Gaza was abandoned by Israel. THERE WERE NO BLOCKADES UNTIL HAMAS GOT POWER IN 2007. The only reason why it is blockaded now is because Israel was trying to prevent something like the previous week from happening, which apparently did not work.



Point 4. Do not blame israel for the oppressive conditions in Gaza. Israel left the Gaza Strip in 2007, and most of the aid that Hamas has received from other countries was used for military equipment (https://themedialine.org/top-stories...gled-material/), and there are videos right now that show Hamas ripping up water pipes from underground to make rockets.


Also, Israel is not the only one blockading Gaza, Egypt also put up a concrete wall to stop Gazan Migrants/Hamas Operatives from entering.

4. ISRAEL EXPELLED ALL PALESTINIAN ARAB MEMBERS FROM PALESTINE AFTER 1948

We Appeal - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

Israeli Declaration of Independence

Arab military radio stations 'ordered' arabs to have a mass exodus from israel, and over 200,000 arabs left even before there was a war (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2536126, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes..._organizations)



Notice that no other arab countries took any of the refugees displaced by the war, something which oddly no one seems to care about.


Point 4: Israel did not expel all arabs from Palestine as a result of making the state. At most, arabs were displaced from the war waged by up to 7 other arab countries at a time. if not for these unprovoked wars, much less arabs would have been displaced. Furthermore, Arabs since the beginning have enjoyed full citizenry in israel, even having representatives in gov't. This disproves the Apartheid theory (look up the definition of Apartheid.)

Bearing all this in mind, hopefully we now realize that claims which are made that Gaza was "Building up from years of resentment, decolonizing, etc.," or maybe even that Hamas was "Only a resistance movement" are now completely untrue. This makes the idea of Israeli retaliation much more feasible.



To discuss the concept of a human shield and proportionate response, I really don't understand the current Opposition's stance. Throughout world history, and indeed in common sense, once an act of aggression is done towards a country, that country will respond in the way it deems fit. I have heard people say that the US should not have started the Afghan war after 9/11, because there were civilian casualties.


This means that Germany shouldn't have been attacked because of the civilians, Japan shouldn't have gotten 2 nuclear bombs after Pearl Harbor, and many other examples of retaliation that NO ONE IS PROTESTING ABOUT.

To put it precisely, If you aim a missile at me from you kitchen behind your baby, i will kill your baby to defend myself. Furthermore, do not blame me for putting the baby in harm's way. If Hamas did not have their military operations near hospitals and schools and civilians, the IDF would not be shooting at them.

Also, even if there were to be an argument for unnecessary civilian death, why is no one blaming hamas for putting their operations there? why is all the blame on israel? this shows something.
....................end transcript.

I’m not sure why you pasted that whole essay, it seems to be some religious scripture, what point were you trying to make?

What I will say is Israel definitely holds all the cards. They control food, water, electricity. They have money, weapons, support from the West and Palestine has nothing.

Atrocities have been committed from both sides, but bombing hospitals and schools is definitely no form of self defence imo 🤷*♀️

Please ignore stuff inside [ ]
I dont/did not see it in my post prior to posting it. Not sure how it populated.

Im seeing issues as I edit. Not sure why.


Original post::::

I posted that argument because a) it addressed comments made by previous poster
b) adding spoiler changed formating and presentation of quoted essay.
C) i wanted to see how others and that poster respond to the given points within the given argument.


[start]The content quoted within the presented argument is not all religious. Some parts include (for lack of better word) Hamas's mission statement and opinion of the Jewsish people. Some sources given pertain historical significance. [/start]

[start]This is used to argue against the idea that Hamas is targeting Israel (or this current war is occuring) because Israel is land grabing/is oppressive, to achieve freedom, etc. [/start]

[start]What ever reasoning for Hamas's attacks, the given argument disagrees.[/start]


[start]2). What I will say is Israel definitely holds all the cards. They control food, water, electricity.[/start]

[start]Ok so I ask: How does Israel control these things? In what way are they doing it? How long have they controlled these aspects of living? [/start]



[start]3) Palestine has nothing[/start]
[start]I disagree. There are aid programs (from the west) that send monetary support to Palestine.[/start]

[start]Point 4 from subsection 3 in the given argument gives examples of Hamas taking aid (gives example of water pipes being used to make rockets) and turning it into a resource for Hamas.[/start]

[start]Similar to how some militias took u.n. aid in Samalia during 90's - stealing food water etc. to feed malitias. Same malitias that killed civilians who were intended recievers of that aid.[/start]

[start]4.) Atrocities have been committed from both sides, but bombing hospitals and schools is definitely no form of self defence imo[/start]

[start]There are reports of Hamas (who has a history of hiding in hospitals, schools, etc.) being in those locations or controling those areas.[/start]

[start]Many hospitals and buildings were bombed during ww2 by both sides. Bombing a building does not make it bad. What matters is the civilian casualties and if there was a way to prevent it.[/start]

[start]Also, Israel is already at war. Why is it bad to attack people, whom you are already fighting against, to prevent more attacks from those people?[/start]

Simple facts;
Illegal settlers
Open prison the people in Gaza are in caged in.
Brutal treatment of the Palestinians through the 75 years of occupation!!
Committing a genocide under the pretence of self defence...killing innocent babies and women.. no food no fuel no water....the biggest terriost state Israel....the world has finally seen their atrocity...they rightly speak about the holocaust yettttt have learnt nothing doing the same to the Palestinians over a longer period ....hamas no terriost they are resistance aganist brutal regime of Israel..which thankgod the world sees

Ok but look.

1. "Brutal treatment of the Palestinians through the 75 years of occupation!!"
The argument given addresses this and points out that there is no occupation or brutal treatment because:
A) local non Jewish persons (identified as Arab in argument) were given citizenship but declined
B) Israel approached table to help build/start "Arab State"
C) Israel approached table to have peace
D) groups that were offered peace to negotiate coexisting paths left the table - they did not want to negotiate.**
And more...just read the argument and it highlights historical events that depict a different*

2.* * Committing a genocide under the pretence of self defence
This is a difficult statement to make because:
A) Israel is attacked and then operates as many other countries operate during war. Countries that are not blamed for genocide.*
B) genocide still requires evidence to show intent and the means. Just saying "its genocide" does not make it so.*
I am open to the evidence but as shown on this thread, the majority who claim Israel commits genocide do not provide evidence. Any death is not an inherent act of genocide.*
In comparison, we have evidence for other genocides in history; in laos, in cambodia, in russia, in germany, etc.*


3....doing*the*same*to*the*Palestinians*i dont think you understand what the Holocaust is. Jews were hunted and gathered to be herded into areas for mass killings. They were put into gas chambers or lined up and shot. Some were prisoned in concentration camps with the intent to kill by starvation* or abusive environment. Some were used in science experiments against their wishes. This is an example of genocide. Where is the evidence that Israel is doing the exact same thing?*

Where is Israel gathering Palestinians, lined up and then shot? Is the IDF invading people's home to rape them and then burn them? What evidence exists?

4.* --**no*food*no*fuel*no*water*
Lets focus on water. How is Israel preventing all of Gaza to go without water?*
Reminder. In the argument presented, pipes from water wells were broken and taken apart by Hamas.*
I don't claim this. But there is video in the presented argument above that showcases how Hamas is doing it.*

5.*hamas*no*terriost*they*are*resistance*aganist*brutal*regime*of*Israel.*
Again. The given argument already talks about this and shows how Hamas is a terrorist group whose only goal is genocide.*
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showpost.php?p=98909885*


And I quote
the Hamas charter itself speaks volumes about why Hamas does the horrors we have seen ( raping*babies, shooting kids in front of their mother, etc.), along with countless other acts of terror. (Full text avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)*

Charter is like a handbook. Written documentation for what Hamas believes in and is trying to do.

this all started in 1948 and this what people fail to realise, what happened on 7th oct is bad but not nearly as bad as what has happened for 75 years straight.
if israel actually cared about their hostages they wouldnt be bombing gaza nonstop.
google defines genocide as : 'the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.' - so it is a genocide, since oct 7th 15k people have been killed, israel is violating so many laws and everyone is turning a blind eye.
ive seen actual clips of idf soldiers breaking into palestinian homes and kidnapping people, tying them and abusing them.
everyone is allowed to have a stance in the situation, but if your gonna support israel, admit your supporting their killings of innocent civillians, dont just turn a blind eye when it suits you 👍

All your posts say the same thing. Israel is doing x. Providing no supporting evidence to the claim.

Actually look the presented argument I posted, there are links provided as supporting evidence. The evidence given contradicts what you are saying.

Why should anyone believe you?


Now we can consider your definition for genocide. At the end it says
"the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Documents from Hamas indicate they want to destroy Israel (nation) and kill all Jews (group). This proves intent, which I said before.

Where is Israel's intent? The actions you describe reflect the same actions coalition army did in Afganistan and Iraq - and you seem to add that the individuals are "tried" which means they go infront of a jury or some kind of judicial system.

So how do you proove intent?
Why are the actions of IDF different than that of USA & coalition forces in Iraq?



The blind eye goes to those who want to argue that Israel is some corrupt regime bent on genocide when there is no evidence for it. All while not admiting Hamas are the ones commiting genocide.

Yes we should be critical of violent actions but that does not mean we need to be neutral or against Israel. Such a position does not condone all violent actions.

I dont need to support any killings whilst supporting Israel because my support does not lend to iradicating the other side. My supprort is in the belief that one should exist.

Yes Palestine should have peace, and it should come with Israel. Israel should have peace and it should come with Palistine.

ur a product of brain washed media, have you not seen the videos of hospitals being bombed?

ur a product of brain washed media, have you not seen the videos of hospitals being bombed?

You reply in this way because you can not proove your claim. You have no argument.

I know its hard to accept another side of things. We all have been there. But you can do it. Take a serious consideration to the things said and be critical towards your own position.

Circular reasoning does not make a thing true. So dont just accept your statements as true just because.

You are so conceited. A simple google search of al-Shifa hospital provides you with evidence. Quit the belittling, Israel is committing a genocide point blank. 1200 Israelis compared to 14,800 Palestinians have been killed since October 7th, which is not when this genocide began, which is also common knowledge.

Statistics aside, let's talk about the recent episode of "University Challenge" in which a few students are on frame with a toy octopus, which was branded anti semitic because of said octopus toy. The BBC has had to deny that the octopus toy was an anti semitic attack. I'll let you figure out whether that is ridiculous or not.

Can't forget the ai generated propaganda posted on Israeli twitter pages.

Recently on the news channel Mirror Now, an Israeli representative was offended by an Indian TV presenters clothing. Specifically the colours which were apparently the colours of the Palestinian flag. She says she was just wearing her Grandmother's sari which happened to be those colours. He said "With all due respect, the green, the red and the black, which you have purposely put on this evening, blue and white will always prevail". She explains the sari is indeed not of Palestinian flag colours very calmly and kindly as well, he responds, quite aggressively, with "save it for another occasion".

He was wearing the colours of the Israeli flag, so even if it was intended why can't she wear the colours of the Palestinian flag? Also ridiculous to anyone with an ounce of thinking capacity.

A video posted directly by Israel's Defence Forces claimed that it had found Hamas weapons and technology, as well as a "list of terrorist names" in Arabic, showing each agents' rota guarding Israeli hostages under the Al-Rantisi Children's Hospital in Gaza. However, a translation of the document shows that it contains no names but instead a calendar of the days of the week. I'd like to see you try and justify that one.

Those are just the cherry on top, with many more examples just like it.

Israel cut off food, water and power to Palestine, which for your information, was ordered by Israel's energy minister Israel Katz, not instigated by Hamas. Israel said that there will be no humanitarian break to its siege on Gaza, until hostages are freed, which is a war crime known as collective punishment. As well as the white phosphorus dropped on the innocent civillians of Gaza, which is indeed another war crime committed by Israel. Exposure to white phosphorus may cause burns and irritation, liver, kidney, heart, lung or bone damage, even death.

Do you not think of the innocent babies, young children, pregnant women, women on their periods without any means of sanitation and the elderly of Palestine who are all being radically displaced, severely wounded and killed? Did you see the videos of Israeli settlers cheering as bombs dropped on Gaza? I'd like to ask where the humanity is.

The al shifa hospital has been proven to be a major hamas hub of operation with weapons and tunnels being found.
If you want to talk about people being easily offended, how about you research the recent m&s advert scandal, or how people rip down posters of Israeli hostages, including posters of children.
The anti Israel side are much more guilty of posting AI images. Israeli ai images trend to be of people celebrating Israel, whereas anti Israel ai images trend to be fake deaths. And if you want to talk about faking then let's talk about the video of the child in the body bag in gaza who was somehow moving despite the fact he was supposed to be dead.
Israel cut off all supplies to gaza, as these supplies come in on the condition that hamas behave. With the hundreds of millions they earn, and the billions their leaders have, they could have made their own energy and water systems, but they spent it all on bombs instead. If you want to talk about thinking of civilians, why have 15,000 gazans been killed and not all of them? It's because Israel puts in effort to preserve civilian life. If the Israelis did not ensure civilians were clear of areas being bombed, near a million would be dead. Israel's tactics to minimise civilian death has resulted in hundreds of thousands of lives being saved. Therefore the death of gazans is not genocide, it's collateral damage from a war. Don't start on Israel for the rights of civilians, if hamas cared about them they wouldn't have committed the October 7th massacre, as they fully well knew that Israel would destroy them. I welcome you to come to Israel and see where humanity really is, I'll give you a clue,*not*with*hamas.

Always with the whataboutism. So your basically telling me you want that child in the bag to be dead, just because he was "supposed to be dead" because at the end of the day that is what fits your agenda . Quite sick to me, and anyone else with an ounce of humanity. Calling the deaths of thousands "collateral damage from war" is unbelievable. If the roles were reversed would your views really be the same? . I wonder if you heard Israeli Prime Minister spokesperson Tal Heinrich saying “Israel is not targeting anyone but civilians” and Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson saying “Israel has the right to commit genocide”. That does not sound like an effort to preserve civilian life to me. Humanity is positively not with Israel, I tell you that. You said "The al shifa hospital has been proven to be a major hamas hub of operation with weapons and tunnels being found". Did I not just tell you about the whole calendar debacle, which is frankly embarrassing and I'd love to hear your justification for that. Plus bombing the entire hospital with thousands of injured civilians is absolutely unforgivable. I can't believe I even have to say that. Do you feel nothing at the prospect of the already direly injured being bombed further. Newborn babies without oxygen. Explain how the "from the river to the sea" chant is anti- semitic, because that is reaching beyond belief. Explain Joe Biden's famous line from 1986: “If there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one.”