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Gender Identities

Can someone please educate me on gender identities? My current view is that people identify as something else if their current state doesn't satisfy their interpretation of a gender. But IMO that doesn't mean they aren't that gender? I don't feel like how I interpret a stereotypical male would feel but I don’t consider myself enby or others to compensate for it. I just accept it.

I don’t mean to convey any hate speech by this but rather wish to understand how people are feeling these days.
(edited 4 months ago)

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Reply 1
The freedom of individual expression is oppressed by the imposition of traditional gender categories. We want these categories to have no basis in evolutionary biology whatsoever. Instead the claim is that they have been arbitrarily imposed on the human species by some malevolent authoritarian force lingering in our past. It is our noble quest to free ourselves from this tyranny. So we have unwisely embraced the premise that the subjective feelings of each individual should supersede biological definitions which are based on empirical observation. The prioritization of those feelings then must control the cultural narrative In order to foster a convincing delusion. Achieving this goal throughout a general population that can’t or won’t believe what they know to be false requires some measure of censorship and coercion. That is why we label objections to this ideology as hate speech and employ cancel culture against those who dissent.

“We are what we say we are.” We are not what hundreds of millions of years of evolution and hundreds of thousands of years of human social development imposes upon us. A cultural revolution against the fabric of reality. It’s like a perfect parody of the relationship between man and God.
Reply 2
Its narcissism. Don’t try and understand it or accommodate it, just ignore it or criticise it.
Reply 3
Original post by ckingalt
The freedom of individual expression is oppressed by the imposition of traditional gender categories. We want these categories to have no basis in evolutionary biology whatsoever. Instead the claim is that they have been arbitrarily imposed on the human species by some malevolent authoritarian force lingering in our past. It is our noble quest to free ourselves from this tyranny. So we have unwisely embraced the premise that the subjective feelings of each individual should supersede biological definitions which are based on empirical observation. The prioritization of those feelings then must control the cultural narrative In order to foster a convincing delusion. Achieving this goal throughout a general population that can’t or won’t believe what they know to be false requires some measure of censorship and coercion. That is why we label objections to this ideology as hate speech and employ cancel culture against those who dissent.

“We are what we say we are.” We are not what hundreds of millions of years of evolution and hundreds of thousands of years of human social development imposes upon us. A cultural revolution against the fabric of reality. It’s like a perfect parody of the relationship between man and God.

It’s not tyranny it’s just an obvious description of whether we’re male, female or hermaphrodite... and I just don’t get why it’s such a problem.
Reply 4
Original post by azzot
It’s not tyranny it’s just an obvious description of whether we’re male, female or hermaphrodite... and I just don’t get why it’s such a problem.

This. It's not rocket science. If someone tells you their name, use it without question. And if they correct your use of pronouns in their context, be respectful of that
I don’t fully understand it either and believe that it’s gone too far but I say identify as whatever you want, I don’t really care for the most part, just don’t always expect people/everyone (myself included) to always take you seriously because that simply won’t always happen in reality.

I’ll call you He/Him, She/Her and maybe They/Them without fail in most cases (whichever one you prefer) even if I don’t necessarily agree with it, anything outside of that I’m not engaging with it.
Reply 6
Original post by hotpud
This. It's not rocket science. If someone tells you their name, use it without question. And if they correct your use of pronouns in their context, be respectful of that


Still interesting that everyone is saying 'be respectful' but there's no real answer so far
Reply 7
Original post by azzot
Still interesting that everyone is saying 'be respectful' but there's no real answer so far

What answer do you want? Do people call you by your name or by a name they have choose for you?

Same with gender. If you are unsure, ask and if you get it wrong, just as I mispronounce names, that is no problem.

The issue arises when some feel they can impose a gender on someone. You are suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to choose but with respect,, who are you to dictate how others feel about themselves.

And of course, regimes that dictate how people dress or cut their hair or not are generally seen as repressive. It is nothing to you how someone else dresses. Why should you care how they choose to identify?
(edited 3 months ago)
Original post by azzot
Still interesting that everyone is saying 'be respectful' but there's no real answer so far

This is my understanding:


Everyone has a biological sex; either male or female. It's defined based on your genes, chromosomes and reproductive organs, and it's not possible to change it. However, we also have a related sociocultural concept called "gender". It reflects the fact that males and females tend to differ in more ways than just their physical bodies. Certain things are considered more "masculine" or more "feminine" depending on which of the two sexes they're more associated with. That could includes people's names and forms of address, behaviours and mannerisms, dress and appearance, hobbies and interests, psychological and emotional traits, family roles and responsibilities etc. It's a bit less black and white and a bit more subjective than sex, it can vary between cultures, and people may conform to gender norms to varying degrees.

Some people, for whatever reason, are unhappy with the biological sex of their bodies, and experience "dysphoria" as a result of anything that reminds them of their sex. To alleviate this, they may choose to alter their bodies to resemble that of the opposite sex. But more relevant to your question, they may also choose to adopt a new gender identity. This involves behaving and presenting themselves to society according to the gender norms of the opposite sex, and expecting society to perceive them and treat them as such. Again, this doesn't actually change their sex, but the aim is to live life as if they belong to the opposite sex and to effectively forget about their real one, as far as possible. That also means they may not appreciate being reminded of their real sex.

Some people might have no problem with their biological sex and feel no need to alter their bodies, but even still, they may not conform to the gender norms associated with that sex. They might reject the idea that they automatically "belong" to a gender or that they should be expected and assumed to conform to a set of gender norms just because of the sex they happened to be born into. They may instead adopt a new gender identity as a way of expressing their personal choice and individuality as to which set of norms (if any) they want to live by and be treated by.


Now as for your question: If someone adopts a new gender identity, does it mean they actually are that gender? Well it depends what you mean. If you're using the word "gender" as synonymous with sex, then no a person cannot change their sex; a male person cannot become female, nor vice-versa. But if you're using the word "gender" to refer to masculinity and femininity as I described above, then yes, a male person can be more feminine and a female person can be more masculine.

Regarding respect, I think the idea is that we shouldn't say things that we know will upset people if there's no need to, even if they're true (e.g. reminding someone of their biological sex when they're doing their best to forget it). Having said that, I personally believe that some people take this too far, (e.g. by seeking to curb people's right to free speech, or demanding to be treated as a member of the opposite sex even when it would be impractical to do so). As with any group of people, there are always going to be some self-centred ones who think the world revolves around them and that their interests should always be front and centre.
Reply 9
Original post by hotpud
What answer do you want? Do people call you by your name or by a name they have choose for you?

Same with gender. If you are unsure, ask and if you get it wrong, just as I mispronounce names, that is no problem.

The issue arises when some feel they can impose a gender on someone. You are suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to choose but with respect,, who are you to dictate how others feel about themselves.

And of course, regimes that dictate how people dress or cut their hair or not are generally seen as repressive. It is nothing to you how someone else dresses. Why should you care how they choose to identify?

It seems like the purpose of this thread is flying over your head. I'm trying to understand the perspective of someone who wants to change their gender. I have no idea where you got "You are suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to choose" from.
Reply 10
Original post by azzot
It seems like the purpose of this thread is flying over your head. I'm trying to understand the perspective of someone who wants to change their gender. I have no idea where you got "You are suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to choose" from.


The perspective of someone who wants to change their gender is that their gender identity is not the same as their sex, which in turn is defined as a sum of your internal and external sex organs and your hormones. You presumably feel a man because you have male sexual organs and hormones. Now imagine feeling that way, but having female organs and hormones. Or visa versa. That is what it is like.

It really isn't that difficult to grasp.
(edited 3 months ago)
Original post by Talkative Toad
I don’t fully understand it either and believe that it’s gone too far but I say identify as whatever you want, I don’t really care for the most part, just don’t always expect people/everyone (myself included) to always take you seriously because that simply won’t always happen in reality.

I’ll call you He/Him, She/Her and maybe They/Them without fail in most cases (whichever one you prefer) even if I don’t necessarily agree with it, anything outside of that I’m not engaging with it.


Pretty similar to how I see it. I'll defend anyone's right to be their authentic self- trans, gender non conforming etc & in general I'm happy to respect their preferred pronouns. I draw the line though at people using silly neopronouns or someone making zero attempt to present as the gender they claim to identify as. Yes, they have the right to use whatever labels they want for themselves but I'm going to find them really cringe & strongly suspect they're trolling.
Original post by Alesha1991
Pretty similar to how I see it. I'll defend anyone's right to be their authentic self- trans, gender non conforming etc & in general I'm happy to respect their preferred pronouns. I draw the line though at people using silly neopronouns or someone making zero attempt to present as the gender they claim to identify as. Yes, they have the right to use whatever labels they want for themselves but I'm going to find them really cringe & strongly suspect they're trolling.


Yep I've seen one person (only online) use terms like wife, lesbian etc along with fitting the stereotypical norms of being a woman to the bone yet they identify as Non-binary (as opposed to using she/her) and in some cases still have the audacity to get annoyed when someone misgenders them. I'm like nah that's 1st world problems right there and you can't expect people to be wizards and just know this about kind of thing (unless you specify it to them).

Glad that I've never had issues with my gender identity, I know that I'm female and that's that. I don't care about trying to fit the gender stereotypes and norms of being a woman in order to "identify" as one, I like some male orientated things, I like some female orientated things doesn't mean that suddenly, I'm potentially not a woman.
Original post by hotpud
The perspective of someone who wants to change their gender is that their gender identity is not the same as their sex, which in turn is defined as a sum of your internal and external sex organs and your hormones. You presumably feel a man because you have male sexual organs and hormones. Now imagine feeling that way, but having female organs and hormones. Or visa versa. That is what it is like.

It really isn't that difficult to grasp.


I’ve personally never understood the part in bold.

I wouldn’t say I particularly “feel like a man”. I just am one, in that I have a male body. I have never been a woman, so I have no reason to imagine that it feels any different.

I don’t go about my life with thoughts of “yeah I’m so manly” in my mind all the time. It’s a very neutral thing. It’s the same way I don’t “feel like a person with brown eyes”, I just am a person with brown eyes. I don’t really see what there is to “feel” about it.
(edited 3 months ago)
Original post by tazarooni89
I’ve personally never understood the part in bold.

I wouldn’t say I particularly “feel like a man”. I just am one, in that I have a male body. I have never been a woman, so I have no reason to imagine that it feels any different.

I don’t go about my life with thoughts of “yeah I’m so manly” in my mind all the time. It’s a very neutral thing. It’s the same way I don’t “feel like a person with brown eyes”, I just am a person with brown eyes. I don’t really see what there is to “feel” about it.

Same thing here, the only time where I feel like a woman (as in I’m thinking, yes I am a woman and feel like one) is when the thing happens once every month. Other than that I just know that I’m a woman, there’s no ‘feelings’ involved, I know what I look like and what I was born as, that’s it.

But then again i’ve never had issues with my gender identity thankfully (I say thankfully as I would not want to be in that position and I’d be afraid of the reaction that I’d get).
Reply 15
Original post by tazarooni89
I’ve personally never understood the part in bold.

I wouldn’t say I particularly “feel like a man”. I just am one, in that I have a male body. I have never been a woman, so I have no reason to imagine that it feels any different.

I don’t go about my life with thoughts of “yeah I’m so manly” in my mind all the time. It’s a very neutral thing. It’s the same way I don’t “feel like a person with brown eyes”, I just am a person with brown eyes. I don’t really see what there is to “feel” about it.

This is the part I struggle with, too.

I don't ever think about gender. I don't feel it, I don't have a presence in my inner life. I neither care about nor am compelled to adhere to gender roles.

Its an intellectual exercise, almost, that I only think about when questions like this are asked.
Reply 16
Original post by tazarooni89
I’ve personally never understood the part in bold.

I wouldn’t say I particularly “feel like a man”. I just am one, in that I have a male body. I have never been a woman, so I have no reason to imagine that it feels any different.

I don’t go about my life with thoughts of “yeah I’m so manly” in my mind all the time. It’s a very neutral thing. It’s the same way I don’t “feel like a person with brown eyes”, I just am a person with brown eyes. I don’t really see what there is to “feel” about it.

True. But equally it is fair to say you don't feel feminine or womanly. That is the point. Some women feel masculine and visa versa. They feel the portrayal of their sexual identity doesn't align with their sense of gender.
Original post by azzot
Can someone please educate me on gender identities? My current view is that people identify as something else if their current state doesn't satisfy their interpretation of a gender. But IMO that doesn't mean they aren't that gender? I don't feel like how I interpret a stereotypical male would feel but I don’t consider myself enby or others to compensate for it. I just accept it.

I don’t mean to convey any hate speech by this but rather wish to understand how people are feeling these days.

"Gender" is what you identify as, "sex" is what you biologically are. The two words are often treated as synonymous because, for most people, sex and gender are aligned and thus considered the same thing.

However there are some people, e.g. transgender people, whose gender and sex are sex not aligned. For example someone can be biologically female but identify as male, e.g. using he / him pronouns.

Why do some people feel that their identity gender not match their sex? That's a whole topic in itself and one that nobody has a concrete answer on, at least as far as I am aware. In the meantime there are people who do feel that way, who seek to transition such that they can live by an identity that is better suited to them.
Reply 18
Original post by tazarooni89
This is my understanding:


Everyone has a biological sex; either male or female. It's defined based on your genes, chromosomes and reproductive organs, and it's not possible to change it. However, we also have a related sociocultural concept called "gender". It reflects the fact that males and females tend to differ in more ways than just their physical bodies. Certain things are considered more "masculine" or more "feminine" depending on which of the two sexes they're more associated with. That could includes people's names and forms of address, behaviours and mannerisms, dress and appearance, hobbies and interests, psychological and emotional traits, family roles and responsibilities etc. It's a bit less black and white and a bit more subjective than sex, it can vary between cultures, and people may conform to gender norms to varying degrees.

Some people, for whatever reason, are unhappy with the biological sex of their bodies, and experience "dysphoria" as a result of anything that reminds them of their sex. To alleviate this, they may choose to alter their bodies to resemble that of the opposite sex. But more relevant to your question, they may also choose to adopt a new gender identity. This involves behaving and presenting themselves to society according to the gender norms of the opposite sex, and expecting society to perceive them and treat them as such. Again, this doesn't actually change their sex, but the aim is to live life as if they belong to the opposite sex and to effectively forget about their real one, as far as possible. That also means they may not appreciate being reminded of their real sex.

Some people might have no problem with their biological sex and feel no need to alter their bodies, but even still, they may not conform to the gender norms associated with that sex. They might reject the idea that they automatically "belong" to a gender or that they should be expected and assumed to conform to a set of gender norms just because of the sex they happened to be born into. They may instead adopt a new gender identity as a way of expressing their personal choice and individuality as to which set of norms (if any) they want to live by and be treated by.


Now as for your question: If someone adopts a new gender identity, does it mean they actually are that gender? Well it depends what you mean. If you're using the word "gender" as synonymous with sex, then no a person cannot change their sex; a male person cannot become female, nor vice-versa. But if you're using the word "gender" to refer to masculinity and femininity as I described above, then yes, a male person can be more feminine and a female person can be more masculine.

Regarding respect, I think the idea is that we shouldn't say things that we know will upset people if there's no need to, even if they're true (e.g. reminding someone of their biological sex when they're doing their best to forget it). Having said that, I personally believe that some people take this too far, (e.g. by seeking to curb people's right to free speech, or demanding to be treated as a member of the opposite sex even when it would be impractical to do so). As with any group of people, there are always going to be some self-centred ones who think the world revolves around them and that their interests should always be front and centre.

The concept of dysphoria is interesting although I just feel it's down to us wrongly interpreting what a man or woman is supposed to feel like then comparing ourselves to that. Thanks for your answer though! I will consider it all, it's a lot to understand so might not reply to this for a while
(edited 3 months ago)
Original post by hotpud
True. But equally it is fair to say you don't feel feminine or womanly. That is the point. Some women feel masculine and visa versa. They feel the portrayal of their sexual identity doesn't align with their sense of gender.


That’s fine, but I don’t then think it’s fair to say “it’s not difficult to grasp”, as if we should all just relate to it easily. Some of us don’t know what “feeling manly” or “feeling womanly” is even supposed to mean, nor is it obvious that there’s even a difference between these two sensations.

So when you say “imagine feeling the way you do but having a female body instead”, I don’t really see what the issue with that is. It would just mean I’m a woman instead of a man. I don’t imagine it would feel much like anything.

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