Let's all laugh at the Tories!

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pkonline
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#341
Report Thread starter 18 years ago
#341
(Original post by vienna95)
As do the Labour party.

it possibly needs to change on presentational and structural bases. it is an electable alternative.

i dont know what you mean by modern in relation to conservatism...
Well at least you acknowledge the need for an image change, finally .

True conservatism IMO is more about choice, epowering people etc...

The Tories seem to have a different idea about it.

Interesting what other people think true conservatism means to them,
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Vienna
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#342
Report 18 years ago
#342
(Original post by pkonline)
Well at least you acknowledge the need for an image change, finally .

True conservatism IMO is more about choice, epowering people etc...

The Tories seem to have a different idea about it.

Interesting what other people think true conservatism means to them,

i never said they need a change of image, i said there were presentational issues in getting the conservative party message to the public.

irrespective of my idea of conservatism, how does the new policy idea on health passports not sum up your ideas of choice..?
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Vienna
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#343
Report 18 years ago
#343
(Original post by Unregistered)
Yes they do, but the Tories stand out as not doing very well in the area of minority MPs. For all you might see it as illogical, its something that will be used as a stick to beat them with until they address it. If we assume the Tories are pretty much at rock bottom in terms of numbers of MPs, then it can't do them any harm to try and make themselves mor appealing for ethnic minority and female candidates. At the moment, there may be many such who would make excellent Tory MPs who are put off by the current state of affairs- its in the party's own interests to do something about it.
i see the difference, but what do you want them to do to make themselves more appealing!!? pay for minority candidates? openly discriminate even more so than all-women shortlists??

there is a problem, but frankly, if minority candidates wont stand for conservative MP then it either reflects on their political convictions are some very herd-like misplaced prejudice.
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Unregistered
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#344
Report 18 years ago
#344
(Original post by vienna95)
i see the difference, but what do you want them to do to make themselves more appealing!!? pay for minority candidates? openly discriminate even more so than all-women shortlists??

there is a problem, but frankly, if minority candidates wont stand for conservative MP then it either reflects on their political convictions are some very herd-like misplaced prejudice.
How they do it is up to them, but I do feel it would be in the best interests of the Tories to make their parliamentary party look a bit more like the Britain it represents. Whether you or the Tories like it or not, so long as the vast bulk of Tory MPs come from a fairly narrow area of the class and ethnic spectrum its going to be used as a stick to beat them with. Perhaps if they address this problem, they might be able to win more significant support beyond their 'core vote'.
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pkonline
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#345
Report Thread starter 18 years ago
#345
(Original post by vienna95)
i never said they need a change of image, i said there were presentational issues in getting the conservative party message to the public.

irrespective of my idea of conservatism, how does the new policy idea on health passports not sum up your ideas of choice..?
No need to pedantic.

:rolleyes:

Thats why I'm posing the question - what is true conservatism. Whilst I may disagree with it, I can see why it has been successful for many years.
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pkonline
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#346
Report Thread starter 18 years ago
#346
There are not enough minority groups due to two reasons: discrimination and minorities not being very active in politics. Its a two sided thing. But the Tories, as every part but more them, have got to do more. They can't say well not enough are coming forward. They have to do more and actively seek out people.
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Elle
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#347
Report 18 years ago
#347
(Original post by pkonline)
No need to pedantic.

:rolleyes:

Thats why I'm posing the question - what is true conservatism. Whilst I may disagree with it, I can see why it has been successful for many years.
I agree.. Tories have a loose definition of conservatism. Even more so now with the campaigning season starting. Maybe they should just give up and realise that conservatism is not what the general public want
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Vienna
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#348
Report 18 years ago
#348
(Original post by Elle)
I agree.. Tories have a loose definition of conservatism. Even more so now with the campaigning season starting. Maybe they should just give up and realise that conservatism is not what the general public want
what is your idea of conservatism?
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Vienna
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#349
Report 18 years ago
#349
(Original post by pkonline)
There are not enough minority groups due to two reasons: discrimination and minorities not being very active in politics. Its a two sided thing. But the Tories, as every part but more them, have got to do more. They can't say well not enough are coming forward. They have to do more and actively seek out people.
so actively head hunting minorities?

im not saying it isnt a problem and that it would be better for the Conservative party, like all parties to be better represented, but engineering in this way goes against what alot of the classic liberals and old Whigs stood for, liberty.
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Elle
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#350
Report 18 years ago
#350
(Original post by vienna95)
what is your idea of conservatism?
Strong moral beliefs and traditinal values
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Tina
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#351
Report 18 years ago
#351
hahahahhahahahaha!!! isnt this whole affair funny??? well yes it is....but in one way its quite sad for democracy. We need a strong opposition for democracy to funtion properly. At the moment the Tories are just a laughing stock and theres not much sign of improvement. Ken Clark or Micheal Portillo would be better leaders for the Tories
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Vienna
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#352
Report 18 years ago
#352
(Original post by pkonline)
No need to pedantic.

:rolleyes:

Thats why I'm posing the question - what is true conservatism. Whilst I may disagree with it, I can see why it has been successful for many years.
im not, im saying i didnt say image.

conservatism is the tendency to resist change. to control change and generally oppose and fear radical reform. it also places a great deal in tradition and established economic and social institutions. it can also relate to libertarianism whereby both disagree with socialism in terms of the economic and social liberty of the citizen.
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Elle
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#353
Report 18 years ago
#353
(Original post by Elle)
Strong moral beliefs and traditinal values
By stating that I'm not saying that their "moral beliefs" are correct.. just that they are there
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Vienna
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#354
Report 18 years ago
#354
(Original post by Elle)
By stating that I'm not saying that their "moral beliefs" are correct.. just that they are there
so where is the loose definition?
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Vienna
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#355
Report 18 years ago
#355
(Original post by Tina)
hahahahhahahahaha!!! isnt this whole affair funny??? well yes it is....but in one way its quite sad for democracy. We need a strong opposition for democracy to funtion properly. At the moment the Tories are just a laughing stock and theres not much sign of improvement. Ken Clark or Micheal Portillo would be better leaders for the Tories
i wouldnt call equal and ahead of Labour in opinion polls a laughing stock. who is doing the laughing?
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Unregistered
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#356
Report 18 years ago
#356
(Original post by vienna95)
so actively head hunting minorities?

im not saying it isnt a problem and that it would be better for the Conservative party, like all parties to be better represented, but engineering in this way goes against what alot of the classic liberals and old Whigs stood for, liberty.
Thats true, but a break with this tradition may well prove necessary for the Tories to become a parliamentary force again. I think head hunting by constituency parties of suitable candidates in areas where there will be high numbers of ethnic minorities would be a sensible move, and might glean them a higher percentage of the vote in urban areas. Obviously its less of a possibility in rural constituencies, and as most Tory seats are rural I can appreciate the difficulty. What I imagine would work best then is a drive to recruit candidates who match the ethnic profile of the particular constituency. Whatever objections you might have to this on principle, it seems to be the most electorally sensible option.
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Tina
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#357
Report 18 years ago
#357
(Original post by vienna95)
i wouldnt call equal and ahead of Labour in opinion polls a laughing stock. who is doing the laughing?
the government is unpopular because of various reasons including the iraq war but lets face it who apart from a faithful tory will vote in a party that cant even agree in itself...the tories need a leader with charisma....lets face it micheal howard doesnt exactly appeal to most people as much as tony blair and opinion polls arent everything....wait til closer to the election. as for who does the laughing...the labour party, the lib dems, the media and the general public.
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Elle
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#358
Report 18 years ago
#358
(Original post by Tina)
the government is unpopular because of various reasons including the iraq war but lets face it who apart from a faithful tory will vote in a party that cant even agree in itself...the tories need a leader with charisma....lets face it micheal howard doesnt exactly appeal to most people as much as tony blair and opinion polls arent everything....wait til closer to the election. as for who does the laughing...the labour party, the lib dems, the media and the general public.
Yeah as much as I hate Labour at the moment.. I would never vote Tory.
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Unregistered
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#359
Report 18 years ago
#359
(Original post by vienna95)
i wouldnt call equal and ahead of Labour in opinion polls a laughing stock. who is doing the laughing?
Hold on a minute! Are you saying that the Tories are ahead of our beloved Labour party?
What polls -what papers - when?
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Vienna
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#360
Report 18 years ago
#360
(Original post by Unregistered)
Hold on a minute! Are you saying that the Tories are ahead of our beloved Labour party?
What polls -what papers - when?
i cant remember which body, but around the time of the IDS saga last week, even the BBC mentioned that there has been little to choose between the two parties for a number of months. both are around 35%
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