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Children to no longer be prescribed puberty blockers, NHS England confirms

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Are you trying to make a point here sorry? She is literally a pediatric doctor, its more than slightly likely she knows both what puberty blockers etc. do in general and how they impact children.
Leaving aside the fact that unless she was the sole source, and writer, for this report her specific expertise is relatively irrelevant you seem to be missing the fact that you generally like to have neutral (unbiassed) people conducting said reviews.
Equally, remind me how her not being involved in "gender affirming healthcare" means she doesn't know what puberty blockers do? That being precisely what you just inferred.
As a slight aside, do you actually think someone with a direct interest in the topic is the best person to be doing a review of.. their own work? Rather akin to asking a politician to lead the review into their own pay.

So, first you claim her expertise as an asset to why the report should be trusted because it means she must know what she's talking about, and now you're claiming her lack of specific expertise is an asset because greater expertise or experience would somehow render her less neutral or unbiased? Pick one.
I suggest you go back and read that again dear. I said she has expertise in childrens medicine and would know about the medicine there. I then said she does not specifically work in 'gender affirming care' ergo does not have that bias. Also, do you not understand how reviews work? More than one persons work goes into these genius, or do you think this is all just her random opinion pulled out of her ass?
Was that really so difficult for you to understand?
That being said, given your prior comments i'm assuming you're simply trying to rubbish her credentials because her view is one you disagree with?

I mean, I can just say the same thing back in reverse - given your prior comments I'm assuming you're simply trying to bolster and defend her credentials because her view is one you agree with?

SLF gave more detailed specific reasons as to why they think Cass is untrustworthy, and you dismissed them out of hand.
Reply 22
Original post by anarchism101
I mean, I can just say the same thing back in reverse - given your prior comments I'm assuming you're simply trying to bolster and defend her credentials because her view is one you agree with?
SLF gave more detailed specific reasons as to why they think Cass is untrustworthy, and you dismissed them out of hand.

I mean you can, on the other hand i'm not the one trying to rubbish a national review by a respected doctor and a large collection of sub-works. Simply put both you and slf are trying to rubbish said work because you dislike it, irrespective of the fact the author knows rather a bit more on the topic than either of you. I trust i dont need to explain as to why you need to try a bit harder to justify your position than i do? It being one of the most basic and fundamental rules of debate.

Back on topic though, i'm curious as to why you actually think a nationally commissioned piece of work (not exactly some random study by a bunch of nobodies) should be dismissed - other than you fully support the practice of giving minors powerful medications. Your previous post simply said shes not directly involved in the practice, in of itself that is not a reason to discard a study and there was no other substantive reason given. Slf's post on the other hand was essentially a wordy diatribe inferring this is nothing but the work of crypto (so called) transphobes who want to kill transsexuals. That view in of itself can be discarded out of hand as you well know, although if you really want we can debate the merits, or lack thereof, of it now?
Reply 23
Original post by anarchism101
"Dr Hilary Cass who, despite being a one-time president of the Royal College of Paediatrics, notably has no prior experience in paediatric gender-affirming care."
https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/what-is-the-cass-review-final-recommendations/

Have you read her CV? She has written numerous published papers in her area of specialist interest and arguably is a world class expert there and at the very least a national expert in the UK who leads in this area so she is well versed in doing research and is able to critically appraise published research. Her area of interests means she comes into contact daily with children with complex needs both physical and emotional which should provide her with a good basis for trying to understand the equally complex children/teens seeking gender affirming care.

Having no experience in gender affirming care means she brings minimal bias to her review which to me is a good thing. That's not to say they don't have access to colleagues working in gender affirming care

https://cass.independent-review.uk/about-the-review/approach/

Part of the review process involved "extensive and purposeful stakeholder engagement, including ensuring that children and young people can express their own views through a supportive process". I have no doubt the the review board would have done this and gained an understanding of the points of view of the stakeholders and the children/teenagers who are seeking gender-affirming care.

What your reply shows is that you want a yes man to rubberstamp your own views and biases. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted but really your posts either show a level of ignorance of the whole process or that you will not accept any outcome other than what you want (what is the point of a review then?).
(edited 5 months ago)
Original post by AriTem
Have you read her CV? She has written numerous published papers in on her area of specialist interest and arguable is a world class expert there and at the very least a national expert in the UK who leads in this area so she is well versed in doing research and is able to critically appraise published research. Her area of interests means she comes into contact daily with children with complex needs both physical and emotional which should provide her with a good basis for trying to understand the equally complex children/teens seeking gender affirming care.
Having no experience in gender affirming care means she brings minimal bias to her review which to me is a good thing. That's not to say they don't have access to colleagues working in gender affirming care
https://cass.independent-review.uk/about-the-review/approach/
Part of the review process involved "extensive and purposeful stakeholder engagement, including ensuring that children and young people can express their own views through a supportive process". I have no doubt the the review board would have done this and gained an understanding of the points of view of the stakeholders and the children/teenagers who are seeing gender-affirming care.
What your reply shows is that you want a yes man to rubberstamp your own views and biases. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted but really your posts either show a level of ignorance of the whole process or that you will not accept any outcome other than what you want (what is the point of a review then?).

She didn't bring minimal bias though? Hence why she worked with Patrick Hunter (DeSantis' man) to gut trans healthcare in Florida two years ago:
https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1781017566581870606

And why her review board included Langton who has links to genspect, an anti trans body who promote conversion therapy and Kaltiala, a well known anti trans activist whose practice sexually harasses trans children: https://kehraaja.com/kuvaile-minulle-miten-masturboit-julkikuvan-takaa-paljastuu-transpolien-nuorten-synkka-tilanne/

And she bought that bias to the report, applying impossible evidence criteria that are not appropriate for this healthcare (you can't blind studies on puberty) in order to discount the evidence base because it didn't suit her agenda.

It was not an honestly performed review of the evidence, hence the vast criticism from academics and bafflement from international parties like Patha as to why Cass couldn't find the evidence base that the rest of the world has: https://patha.nz/News/13341582
Reply 25
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
She didn't bring minimal bias though? Hence why she worked with Patrick Hunter (DeSantis' man) to gut trans healthcare in Florida two years ago:
https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1781017566581870606
And why her review board included Langton who has links to genspect, an anti trans body who promote conversion therapy and Kaltiala, a well known anti trans activist whose practice sexually harasses trans children: https://kehraaja.com/kuvaile-minulle-miten-masturboit-julkikuvan-takaa-paljastuu-transpolien-nuorten-synkka-tilanne/
And she bought that bias to the report, applying impossible evidence criteria that are not appropriate for this healthcare (you can't blind studies on puberty) in order to discount the evidence base because it didn't suit her agenda.
It was not an honestly performed review of the evidence, hence the vast criticism from academics and bafflement from international parties like Patha as to why Cass couldn't find the evidence base that the rest of the world has: https://patha.nz/News/13341582

As I said I don't have any intention to read this and examine the evidence myself.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/about-the-review/assurance-group/

The assurance group board is here. I can't see Langton on it. As part of her remit she would have to canvass all stakeholders not just the ones you think are appropriate. If you wish to label a stakeholder she talked to as anti-trans then that's your POV? Nor does the link to Patrick Hunter show she worked with him? Again she has a duty if the review is to be unbiased to speak to all stakeholders. It all sounds like you just want her to canvas your list of "correct" stakeholders.

I am sure she understands better than most why you can't do blind studies in puberty. Anyone who has done any kind of medical research will understand that.

As to academic criticism, I read that as academics protecting their own bias. Put 20 experts in a room and you will get 20 different nuanced answers as to what the right thing to do is. I think she was always going to be damned whatever the review found by one side or the other. At the end of the day, this is a report produced after a review of the current evidence that tries to be as unbiased as possible. All such reviews will always be open to criticism especially given that published research is not blinded and therefore is potentially inherently biased by the research author's own stance on treatments offered.

https://patha.wildapricot.org/exec

An organization that hides their own executive committee wants to be taken seriously?
(edited 5 months ago)
Original post by AriTem
As I said I don't have any intention to read this and examine the evidence myself.
https://cass.independent-review.uk/about-the-review/assurance-group/
The assurance group board is here. I can't see Langton on it. As part of her remit she would have to canvass all stakeholders not just the ones you think are appropriate. If you wish to label a stakeholder she talked to as anti-trans then that's your POV? Nor does the link to Patrick Hunter show she worked with him? Again she has a duty if the review is to be unbiased to speak to all stakeholders. It all sounds like you just want her to canvas your list of "correct" stakeholders.
I am sure she understands better than most why you can't do blind studies in puberty. Anyone who has done any kind of medical research will understand that.
As to academic criticism, I read that as academics protecting their own bias. Put 20 experts in a room and you will get 20 different nuanced answers as to what the right thing to do is. I think she was always going to be damned whatever the review found by one side or the other. At the end of the day, this is a report produced after a review of the current evidence that tries to be as unbiased as possible. All such reviews will always be open to criticism especially given that published research is not blinded and therefore is potentially inherently biased by the research author's own stance on treatments offered.

Langton was in charge of method design for the York University study that the Cass report hangs it's hat on.

The Cass review literally downgrades a lot of evidence due to a lack of blinding so if she understands you can't do blinded studies on puberty that doesn't seem to be an issue to her in terms of getting the results she wanted. The design of the review makes it very clear it started with a conclusion and worked it's way back, it's poor academics and that's why academics are slamming it.

The only stakeholders in trans healthcare are trans people themselves, speaking to men appointed with the sole purpose of undermining bodily autonomy as a whole is not consulting with stakeholders (and let's be clear, this is about all bodily autonomy, there's a reason why Kiera Bells lawyer in her case v tavistock has also been involved in cases attacking gillick competence, next on the chopping block after trans healthcare is birth control and the recriminalisation of abortion)
Reply 27
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
Langton was in charge of method design for the York University study that the Cass report hangs it's hat on.
The Cass review literally downgrades a lot of evidence due to a lack of blinding so if she understands you can't do blinded studies on puberty that doesn't seem to be an issue to her in terms of getting the results she wanted. The design of the review makes it very clear it started with a conclusion and worked it's way back, it's poor academics and that's why academics are slamming it.
The only stakeholders in trans healthcare are trans people themselves, speaking to men appointed with the sole purpose of undermining bodily autonomy as a whole is not consulting with stakeholders (and let's be clear, this is about all bodily autonomy, there's a reason why Kiera Bells lawyer in her case v tavistock has also been involved in cases attacking gillick competence, next on the chopping block after trans healthcare is birth control and the recriminalisation of abortion)

Well it's obvious you are entrenched in your views. The only stakeholders in trans healthcare are the trans themselves? So children should be allowed to decide what they want for themselves? I'm sorry I can't agree with that as a parent who has seen my kids make numerous questionable decisions.

I don't think there's any meaningful discussion to be had here so feel free to ignore my posts.
Original post by AriTem
Well it's obvious you are entrenched in your views. The only stakeholders in trans healthcare are the trans themselves? So children should be allowed to decide what they want for themselves? I'm sorry I can't agree with that as a parent who has seen my kids make numerous questionable decisions.
I don't think there's any meaningful discussion to be had here so feel free to ignore my posts.

Children who are gillick competent should be able to choose for themselves, that's the entire point of gillick competence
We don't let children smoke, drink, get tattoos, have sex, join the army or drive among countless other things they can't do for the sake of the fact they are incapable of understanding or their bodies can't handle it. Not sure why this is a big fuss.
Mermaids until recently were advising parents that hormone treatment and puberty blockers are reversible. They certainly are NOT.

The Economist had an article where girls with precocious puberty who had been prescribed puberty blockers decades ago and were now grown adults had brittle bones and severe problems with retaining memory.
Cass Review: Gender care report author attacks 'misinformation'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68863594
Under 18s in Wales won't be prescribed puberty blockers, says Welsh Government

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/under-18s-wont-prescribed-puberty-29039035.amp
As a counter to some of the pseudoscientific assertions posted above, please see the attached, which refers to peer reviewed analyses of puberty in humans -

https://www.pittparents.com/p/no-such-thing-as-the-wrong-puberty

The use of puberty blockers to treat children expressing gender distress is a public health scandal. There was never any sound evidential basis for such use, and some of the doctors who pioneered gender affirmation medicine have since accepted that they were wrong. Gender activists continue to push for children to receive unsafe experimental medicine, for reasons which are purely ideological, and private doctors push the meds for commercial gain.

On one side of the medical debate in the UK we have Dr Hilary Cass, one of the most distinguished paediatricians in the World. On the other side, we have doctors such as Helen Webberley, a private GP who has no qualifications in paediatrics, endocrinology, or psychiatry, and who is is a convicted criminal selling meds to confused minors via an offshore company.

Her husband (and either current or former business associate) is an ex doctor who was struck off for serious misconduct. In one case he prescribed gender meds to a nine year old girl after one video call lasting no more than fifteen minutes.

The offshore company has also previously had an association with Susie Green, the founder of Mermaids, a woman who had her son castrated in Thailand aged sixteen because she did not wish him to be gay.

Science and ethical medicine versus quackery and commerce. The answer is clear: choose science and ethics.
(edited 5 months ago)
Original post by Guru Jason
We don't let children smoke, drink, get tattoos, have sex, join the army or drive among countless other things they can't do for the sake of the fact they are incapable of understanding or their bodies can't handle it. Not sure why this is a big fuss.

Technically we do let children drive if we want to be pedantic as you can drive when you’re 17, same with joining the army, I think that you can join at 16 years old unless I’m mistaken here and things like the age of consent is 16.
Original post by Talkative Toad
Technically we do let children drive if we want to be pedantic as you can drive when you’re 17, same with joining the army, I think that you can join at 16 years old unless I’m mistaken here and things like the age of consent is 16.

True, but the point is that children as young as nine, and many teenagers well before sixteen or eighteen, have been harmed by irresponsible medical practices at the Tavistock and by financially-motivated private doctors with dubious ethics. The explosion in patient numbers, and the sudden shift from a predominance of male patients to a predominance of female patients appear to have a lot to do with social contagion. The theorists, activists, and influencers who push gender affirmation at minors who are experiencing the challenges of adolescence bear much blame, along with the doctors, teachers, social workers, and some parents who have allowed or encouraged this harm to occur.
Original post by Talkative Toad
Technically we do let children drive if we want to be pedantic as you can drive when you’re 17, same with joining the army, I think that you can join at 16 years old unless I’m mistaken here and things like the age of consent is 16.

Yes but my point it we put ages in these things for specific reasons. We don't let 7 year old get tattoos yet some people are willing to let their or others children get pressured into life altering medicine.
Original post by Guru Jason
Yes but my point it we put ages in these things for specific reasons. We don't let 7 year old get tattoos yet some people are willing to let their or others children get pressured into life altering medicine.

Adult activists who join in the encouragement of other people's children to transition are recruiters for a cause. It's a horrible cause - propagating ideas which run counter to every value of enlightenment and progress. Activists tell confused minors that they are in effect prisoners of antediluvian cultural stereotypes of appearance and behaviour, which require them to harm themselves physically in order to conform to bizarre notions of gendered personality which were invented by charlatan academics from the 1970s onwards.

Girl who likes climbing trees and playing with toy guns? You're a boy! Boy who likes baking cakes and wearing pink? You're a girl! Now you must take irreversible medications which expert doctors consider unsafe, and which have demonstrable negative side effects. Once in adulthood you may be persuaded to have yourself mutilated by a butcher posing as a surgeon, destroying healthy tissue and removing sexual function and fertility. You can become a life long customer of the quack doctors and the drug companies they shill for.

The real wonder here is that the NHS ever had anything to do with this barbaric claptrap.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
True, but the point is that children as young as nine, and many teenagers well before sixteen or eighteen, have been harmed by irresponsible medical practices at the Tavistock and by financially-motivated private doctors with dubious ethics. The explosion in patient numbers, and the sudden shift from a predominance of male patients to a predominance of female patients appear to have a lot to do with social contagion. The theorists, activists, and influencers who push gender affirmation at minors who are experiencing the challenges of adolescence bear much blame, along with the doctors, teachers, social workers, and some parents who have allowed or encouraged this harm to occur.


I’m against puberty blockers on children (so I agree with the ban), I’m just highlighting that technically a child can drive for example if we want to be pedantic.

Original post by Guru Jason
Yes but my point it we put ages in these things for specific reasons. We don't let 7 year old get tattoos yet some people are willing to let their or others children get pressured into life altering medicine.


That’s somewhat true
Original post by Stiffy Byng
Adult activists who join in the encouragement of other people's children to transition are recruiters for a cause. It's a horrible cause - propagating ideas which run counter to every value of enlightenment and progress. Activists tell confused minors that they are in effect prisoners of antediluvian cultural stereotypes of appearance and behaviour, which require them to harm themselves physically in order to conform to bizarre notions of gendered personality which were invented by charlatan academics from the 1970s onwards.
Girl who likes climbing trees and playing with toy guns? You're a boy! Boy who likes baking cakes and wearing pink? You're a girl! Now you must take irreversible medications which expert doctors consider unsafe, and which have demonstrable negative side effects. Once in adulthood you may be persuaded to have yourself mutilated by a butcher posing as a surgeon, destroying healthy tissue and removing sexual function and fertility. You can become a life long customer of the quack doctors and the drug companies they shill for.
The real wonder here is that the NHS ever had anything to do with this barbaric claptrap.

Basically regressing decades back to depressing gender stereotyping.

And Green who had to leave Mermaids due to her dogmatic and single handed running of their services (members had clashed with her because she would tell parents that all this medication was reversible and would refer them without any qualifications for hormones prescriptions) went to work for Webberley.

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