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OCR A Level Classical Civilisation Paper 1 (H408/11) - 14th May 2024 [Exam Chat]

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Reply 60

Original post
by Unevu
Guys the only point where I remember Hector in Aeneid is in book 2, where he comes to Aeneas when he was sleeping to tell him Troy is under attack. What other role does he have in the Aeneid, I'm genuinely asking.

Pretty sure that's it

Reply 61

Original post
by secure-chronicle
a real job?? what might that be. abandoning wives? or procrastinating destiny? nah my man Hector was the one with the real job
bullying him??? why are you pitting him and hector against each other. they are fundamentally different types of heroes? hector is a homeric hero who dies in battle and is noble until he's dead and aeneas is the hero that walks blindly towards a destiny he knows nothing about and yet manages to find it anyway. virgil could not more explicitly be saying the urge to self sacrifice is bad, it is better to help people survive than it is to die in a blaze of glory. hector ignores the advice of andromache and he dies at achilles' hands and it's all noble and great and even achilles in the odyssey said he'd rather be alive and miserable than dead and glorious, aeneas is not the same type of hero but he's given the trojans a legacy to live to and at least they're alive, you know???

Reply 62

Original post
by Krishk15
Augustan propaganda notes? What would u say for an essay on it


res gestae xxxxx

Reply 63

Original post
by aaaaaaaaaa2006
bullying him??? why are you pitting him and hector against each other. they are fundamentally different types of heroes? hector is a homeric hero who dies in battle and is noble until he's dead and aeneas is the hero that walks blindly towards a destiny he knows nothing about and yet manages to find it anyway. virgil could not more explicitly be saying the urge to self sacrifice is bad, it is better to help people survive than it is to die in a blaze of glory. hector ignores the advice of andromache and he dies at achilles' hands and it's all noble and great and even achilles in the odyssey said he'd rather be alive and miserable than dead and glorious, aeneas is not the same type of hero but he's given the trojans a legacy to live to and at least they're alive, you know???

also lbr hector was one of the people telling aeneas to go and do the whole aeneid rather than fighting and dying in a blaze of glory so why are you acting like they're on opposite sides of an argument here help

Reply 64

Original post
by ladydracula
Good calls! Here's my two cents...
I think that Telemachus is a really good prediction, he's been quite absent from a pretty much all the recent papers. I'd be super happy to see him come up as a 20 mark. His transition from boy to man is really easy to trace through the narrative, and Athene's role as a surrogate father who pushes him in the right direction is also good to debate. Slaves alone as a theme is unlikely in my opinion. I think if it does come up, it'll be a part of a wider context question, like the structure of society. Though if it does appear in isolation, there's definitely enough to say about bards/minstrels and how culturally important they were, honest slaves like Eumaeus/Philoetius and disloyal slaves such as Melanthius, Melantho and the maids. It'd then be worth mentioning their excessively cruel punishments at the end of the epic (hanging the maids like dead doves in a snare, torturing and chopping up Melanthius) as perhaps an emphasis of just how shameful disobeying your master really was in that age.
Anything related to deceit, disguise or trickery would be a very generous question for a 20 mark, I think that it's more likely to be the 30 mark if it appears just because there's so much to say. It's certainly an unconventional way to show heroism for Greek heroes, but it's arguably the most prominent way Metis is shown, so it could even come under a question about that. Disguise is absolutely Odysseus' thing; Helen's story of his beggar disguise all the way back at Troy, the infamous name 'Nobody' and the beggar disguise cast on him by Athene. There would also be room to state how often he conceals his name; with the Phaeacians, arriving on Ithaca and even when meeting Laertes again. It's something that's often used by the gods too, a way to give mention to theoxenia as an example or one of the many disguises Athene takes. In short it further connects Odysseus with the gods, boosting him up as a hero. An interesting point would also be how often deceit and deception is linked to women specifically. Penelope deceives the suitors by unravelling her work on Laertes' death shroud, Helen calls out to the Argive captains inside of the horse in the voices of their wives, Agamemnon's entire speech about how 'all' women are unfaithful.
Women is generally a pretty popular theme and features in some way each year. I don't think it will be the direct focus of the 30 mark since I believe something similar has come up fairly recently. If it does, there's plenty to be said about them and how they're supposed to behave. Go crazy with context and knowledge of gender roles- easy link with the Love and Relationships module. Gods contribute a lot to the epic, but it depends on what the question is asking for in particular. Whether it's about divine intervention specifically, to what extent Gods are important to the epic, if they're fair to mortals, how they influence the narrative in other ways...
I think that justice/order, good/evil or something very loosely based on heroism/kleos in the ancient world could be part of the 30 mark (OCR loves vague questions 🙃). I agree that it'll be unlikely to name Odysseus/his character specifically, but I can imagine a question like 'Monsters are the only source of evil in the epic, agree/disagree' or 'An ancient hero should always celebrate his achievements, agree/disagree' where he'd need to be discussed.

this all sounds really good do u think u could share your telemachus and disguise essay plans <33 I am very much cramming lol any help would be appreciated

Reply 65

Original post
by iladevlin28
i'm doing Odyssey and Aeneid, good luck everyone! i'd recommend doing the paper backwards as it gives more time to focus on the higher mark questions :smile:

That sounds like a good idea.
(edited 1 year ago)

Reply 66

Original post
by nabihaaa
this all sounds really good do u think u could share your telemachus and disguise essay plans <33 I am very much cramming lol any help would be appreciated

Sure! Of course, everything depends on the question, but for these topics, my essays would look something like...
Disguise (assuming a question on its importance)

1.

Disguise as something associated with the divine - Here, I'd talk about how disguise is often associated with the Gods, which means that when used by mortals, it's generally a much more impressive strategy. A good example is Theoxenia and how mortals must be cautious that gods often blend in amongst mortals, with Athene appearing as Mentes. Her disguise as Telemachus when preparing ships in Bk2, her accompanying Telemachus as Mentor through Bk3/4. Disguise is a means for the gods to intervene with mortal lives.

2.

Disguise as a method of showing Odysseus' metis - Quite general praise of Odysseus' intelligence, and possibly reference to how it enables him to gain the upper hand on his enemy. For example, Odysseus' commitment to his disguise at Troy (wearing rags, wounding himself) and the fact that he was the first to infiltrate the city in 10 years, Polyphemus and 'Nobody,' guarantees a safe escape, and also his beggar disguise in Ithaca, which allows him to determine which suitors/maids must be punished.

3.

Consequences/dangers of revealing yourself - Disguises in the Odyssey are a means of protection. Odysseus makes a fatal error when calling out his name to Polyphemus as it allows a curse to be placed upon him by Polyphemus. Odysseus learns from this, and he avoids questioning on Phaeacia asking for his identity. Agamemnon also warns Odysseus not to sail into the port of Ithaca, for fear that he will meet the same fate as he did at the hands of his wife, he must conceal his return and investigate first. The whole time Odysseus is in the palace as the beggar, a slip of his identity may be fatal as he would be overwhelmed by the suitors.

If the question is slightly different, points could include Odysseus' personal feelings vs the need to keep up his disguise, and also any recognition scenes and their importance. Instances like his reactions to the death of Argos, meeting Penelope (addressing her as gynai, meaning lady or wife) and the pain of seeing Eumaeus caress Telemachus like his own son whilst he must maintain the guise of a beggar.
Telemachus (harder to anticipate the wording of the question, but assuming it's something on him being helpful/not helpful)

1.

Telemachus' uncertainty/naivety - He begins the epic as a poor example of the son of a great hero, he lacks guidance and a role model. He's disconsolate amongst the suitors, allowing them to ruin his home and pursue his mother with almost no consequence. I'd also draw attention to his emotional outbursts, notably in Bk2 at the assembly. Though what he says is justified, the suitors are in the wrong, the streaming tears and anger can be viewed as quite childish and inappropriate, not yet like his father with his measured way of speaking. He has moments of insecurity, namely in Bk3 when he is the last to leave the ship at Pylos. He feels he is not yet wise enough to address another king, and must be nudged by Athene/Mentor. Could also squeeze in about how Menelaus scolds him after making a comment about the palace in Sparta being as grand/luxurious as Zeus' home in Olympus.

2.

Telemachus' growth - I'd mention a point about Athene acting as a surrogate father who doesn't make Telemachus into a hero, but draws his inner heroism out. He is able to address his mother and dismiss her as the leading man of the house, despite her surprise at his newfound authority. Telemachus addresses the suitors and defends his home. His displays of xenia are great, and that sets him up as a heroic figure, directly contrasted against the suitors.

3.

Telemachus' aid to Odysseus - Though he isn't perfect and does make some mistakes, for example leaving the store room door open in Bk22, Telemachus tries his hardest to help and learn from his father. He has a heroic moment of justice when he kills Amphinomus and brings Odysseus the weapons he needs to slaughter the suitors. He helps him spare the innocent in Bk22 (Phemius, Medon) and punish the maids for their crimes against the household. Like Odysseus, Telemachus helps in delivering divine justice.

I think, if the question allows, some interesting and insightful points to make would include what Telemachus represents, especially to Odysseus. Much like Penelope, he's an extension of the home and Ithaca, part of his nostos. Penelope represents love and loyalty, whereas Telemachus can be seen to represent the the house itself. I noticed that he's often associated with dogs, in Bk2, he has two walking at his side, and when he arrives at Eumaeus' hut, the dogs bound happily up to him. Dogs are a staple symbol of an orderly home: they're obedient, powerful, loyal.

There's also room to directly compare Telemachus with the suitors, particularly with xenia. Even with his youth and inexperience, he's miles above them morally, as he offers great hospitality. Theoclymenus is a good example, he makes the decision to shelter him in Bk15.

Reply 67

Original post
by ladydracula
Sure! Of course, everything depends on the question, but for these topics, my essays would look something like...
Disguise (assuming a question on its importance)

1.

Disguise as something associated with the divine - Here, I'd talk about how disguise is often associated with the Gods, which means that when used by mortals, it's generally a much more impressive strategy. A good example is Theoxenia and how mortals must be cautious that gods often blend in amongst mortals, with Athene appearing as Mentes. Her disguise as Telemachus when preparing ships in Bk2, her accompanying Telemachus as Mentor through Bk3/4. Disguise is a means for the gods to intervene with mortal lives.

2.

Disguise as a method of showing Odysseus' metis - Quite general praise of Odysseus' intelligence, and possibly reference to how it enables him to gain the upper hand on his enemy. For example, Odysseus' commitment to his disguise at Troy (wearing rags, wounding himself) and the fact that he was the first to infiltrate the city in 10 years, Polyphemus and 'Nobody,' guarantees a safe escape, and also his beggar disguise in Ithaca, which allows him to determine which suitors/maids must be punished.

3.

Consequences/dangers of revealing yourself - Disguises in the Odyssey are a means of protection. Odysseus makes a fatal error when calling out his name to Polyphemus as it allows a curse to be placed upon him by Polyphemus. Odysseus learns from this, and he avoids questioning on Phaeacia asking for his identity. Agamemnon also warns Odysseus not to sail into the port of Ithaca, for fear that he will meet the same fate as he did at the hands of his wife, he must conceal his return and investigate first. The whole time Odysseus is in the palace as the beggar, a slip of his identity may be fatal as he would be overwhelmed by the suitors.

If the question is slightly different, points could include Odysseus' personal feelings vs the need to keep up his disguise, and also any recognition scenes and their importance. Instances like his reactions to the death of Argos, meeting Penelope (addressing her as gynai, meaning lady or wife) and the pain of seeing Eumaeus caress Telemachus like his own son whilst he must maintain the guise of a beggar.
Telemachus (harder to anticipate the wording of the question, but assuming it's something on him being helpful/not helpful)

1.

Telemachus' uncertainty/naivety - He begins the epic as a poor example of the son of a great hero, he lacks guidance and a role model. He's disconsolate amongst the suitors, allowing them to ruin his home and pursue his mother with almost no consequence. I'd also draw attention to his emotional outbursts, notably in Bk2 at the assembly. Though what he says is justified, the suitors are in the wrong, the streaming tears and anger can be viewed as quite childish and inappropriate, not yet like his father with his measured way of speaking. He has moments of insecurity, namely in Bk3 when he is the last to leave the ship at Pylos. He feels he is not yet wise enough to address another king, and must be nudged by Athene/Mentor. Could also squeeze in about how Menelaus scolds him after making a comment about the palace in Sparta being as grand/luxurious as Zeus' home in Olympus.

2.

Telemachus' growth - I'd mention a point about Athene acting as a surrogate father who doesn't make Telemachus into a hero, but draws his inner heroism out. He is able to address his mother and dismiss her as the leading man of the house, despite her surprise at his newfound authority. Telemachus addresses the suitors and defends his home. His displays of xenia are great, and that sets him up as a heroic figure, directly contrasted against the suitors.

3.

Telemachus' aid to Odysseus - Though he isn't perfect and does make some mistakes, for example leaving the store room door open in Bk22, Telemachus tries his hardest to help and learn from his father. He has a heroic moment of justice when he kills Amphinomus and brings Odysseus the weapons he needs to slaughter the suitors. He helps him spare the innocent in Bk22 (Phemius, Medon) and punish the maids for their crimes against the household. Like Odysseus, Telemachus helps in delivering divine justice.

I think, if the question allows, some interesting and insightful points to make would include what Telemachus represents, especially to Odysseus. Much like Penelope, he's an extension of the home and Ithaca, part of his nostos. Penelope represents love and loyalty, whereas Telemachus can be seen to represent the the house itself. I noticed that he's often associated with dogs, in Bk2, he has two walking at his side, and when he arrives at Eumaeus' hut, the dogs bound happily up to him. Dogs are a staple symbol of an orderly home: they're obedient, powerful, loyal.
There's also room to directly compare Telemachus with the suitors, particularly with xenia. Even with his youth and inexperience, he's miles above them morally, as he offers great hospitality. Theoclymenus is a good example, he makes the decision to shelter him in Bk15.

you absolute lifesaver thank you so so much !!! :smile:)

Reply 68

Original post
by nabihaaa
you absolute lifesaver thank you so so much !!! :smile:)

No problem! Best of luck for tomorrow 🤗

Reply 69

If Aeneas has a million fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has ten fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has only one fan then that is me. If Aeneas has no fans, then that means I am no longer on earth. If the world is against Aeneas, then I am against the world.

Reply 70

Original post
by alecks
If Aeneas has a million fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has ten fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has only one fan then that is me. If Aeneas has no fans, then that means I am no longer on earth. If the world is against Aeneas, then I am against the world.

Aeneas sucks balls man

Reply 71

Original post
by alecks
If Aeneas has a million fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has ten fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has only one fan then that is me. If Aeneas has no fans, then that means I am no longer on earth. If the world is against Aeneas, then I am against the world.

i agree

Reply 72

Original post
by alecks
If Aeneas has a million fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has ten fans, then I am one of them. If Aeneas has only one fan then that is me. If Aeneas has no fans, then that means I am no longer on earth. If the world is against Aeneas, then I am against the world.
Aeneas I’m so drunkkkk I’m wasted @aeneas😭😭😭😭 aenieeeeee😭😭😭I’m out of it bro@ aeneasss@&&😭😭😭😭😭

Reply 73

Original post
by tbhcreature
Aeneas I’m so drunkkkk I’m wasted @aeneas😭😭😭😭 aenieeeeee😭😭😭I’m out of it bro@ aeneasss@&&😭😭😭😭😭

foul that man does not wash i can tell you that for a fact

Reply 74

virgil:
Original post
by tbhcreature
Aeneas I’m so drunkkkk I’m wasted @aeneas😭😭😭😭 aenieeeeee😭😭😭I’m out of it bro@ aeneasss@&&😭😭😭😭😭

(virgil was def a bit gay he's so bad at writing sexy women but so good at making aeneas a pretty boy)

Reply 75

Original post
by ladydracula
Sure! Of course, everything depends on the question, but for these topics, my essays would look something like...
Disguise (assuming a question on its importance)

1.

Disguise as something associated with the divine - Here, I'd talk about how disguise is often associated with the Gods, which means that when used by mortals, it's generally a much more impressive strategy. A good example is Theoxenia and how mortals must be cautious that gods often blend in amongst mortals, with Athene appearing as Mentes. Her disguise as Telemachus when preparing ships in Bk2, her accompanying Telemachus as Mentor through Bk3/4. Disguise is a means for the gods to intervene with mortal lives.

2.

Disguise as a method of showing Odysseus' metis - Quite general praise of Odysseus' intelligence, and possibly reference to how it enables him to gain the upper hand on his enemy. For example, Odysseus' commitment to his disguise at Troy (wearing rags, wounding himself) and the fact that he was the first to infiltrate the city in 10 years, Polyphemus and 'Nobody,' guarantees a safe escape, and also his beggar disguise in Ithaca, which allows him to determine which suitors/maids must be punished.

3.

Consequences/dangers of revealing yourself - Disguises in the Odyssey are a means of protection. Odysseus makes a fatal error when calling out his name to Polyphemus as it allows a curse to be placed upon him by Polyphemus. Odysseus learns from this, and he avoids questioning on Phaeacia asking for his identity. Agamemnon also warns Odysseus not to sail into the port of Ithaca, for fear that he will meet the same fate as he did at the hands of his wife, he must conceal his return and investigate first. The whole time Odysseus is in the palace as the beggar, a slip of his identity may be fatal as he would be overwhelmed by the suitors.

If the question is slightly different, points could include Odysseus' personal feelings vs the need to keep up his disguise, and also any recognition scenes and their importance. Instances like his reactions to the death of Argos, meeting Penelope (addressing her as gynai, meaning lady or wife) and the pain of seeing Eumaeus caress Telemachus like his own son whilst he must maintain the guise of a beggar.
Telemachus (harder to anticipate the wording of the question, but assuming it's something on him being helpful/not helpful)

1.

Telemachus' uncertainty/naivety - He begins the epic as a poor example of the son of a great hero, he lacks guidance and a role model. He's disconsolate amongst the suitors, allowing them to ruin his home and pursue his mother with almost no consequence. I'd also draw attention to his emotional outbursts, notably in Bk2 at the assembly. Though what he says is justified, the suitors are in the wrong, the streaming tears and anger can be viewed as quite childish and inappropriate, not yet like his father with his measured way of speaking. He has moments of insecurity, namely in Bk3 when he is the last to leave the ship at Pylos. He feels he is not yet wise enough to address another king, and must be nudged by Athene/Mentor. Could also squeeze in about how Menelaus scolds him after making a comment about the palace in Sparta being as grand/luxurious as Zeus' home in Olympus.

2.

Telemachus' growth - I'd mention a point about Athene acting as a surrogate father who doesn't make Telemachus into a hero, but draws his inner heroism out. He is able to address his mother and dismiss her as the leading man of the house, despite her surprise at his newfound authority. Telemachus addresses the suitors and defends his home. His displays of xenia are great, and that sets him up as a heroic figure, directly contrasted against the suitors.

3.

Telemachus' aid to Odysseus - Though he isn't perfect and does make some mistakes, for example leaving the store room door open in Bk22, Telemachus tries his hardest to help and learn from his father. He has a heroic moment of justice when he kills Amphinomus and brings Odysseus the weapons he needs to slaughter the suitors. He helps him spare the innocent in Bk22 (Phemius, Medon) and punish the maids for their crimes against the household. Like Odysseus, Telemachus helps in delivering divine justice.

I think, if the question allows, some interesting and insightful points to make would include what Telemachus represents, especially to Odysseus. Much like Penelope, he's an extension of the home and Ithaca, part of his nostos. Penelope represents love and loyalty, whereas Telemachus can be seen to represent the the house itself. I noticed that he's often associated with dogs, in Bk2, he has two walking at his side, and when he arrives at Eumaeus' hut, the dogs bound happily up to him. Dogs are a staple symbol of an orderly home: they're obedient, powerful, loyal.
There's also room to directly compare Telemachus with the suitors, particularly with xenia. Even with his youth and inexperience, he's miles above them morally, as he offers great hospitality. Theoclymenus is a good example, he makes the decision to shelter him in Bk15.

we don't study book 2,3 and 4 though so do you think it is likely they will ask us about him?

Reply 76

Original post
by parmiss05
we don't study book 2,3 and 4 though so do you think it is likely they will ask us about him?

this is a good point actually! i forget there are books we aren't prescribed. i'd say be slightly prepared just in case but most of what we see from his character development comes from those books so it would be strange for them to ask about him

Reply 77

it would be really good if there was a question on how Augustan propaganda is seen through the Aeneid for the 30 marker

Reply 78

Final predictions for Aeneid and odyssey

Reply 79

She Aug on my Goustas till I Rome

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