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frost105
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Ariel4)
i think a lot of drugs are actually purer than ppl think. most drug dealers do not want to kill off their business. the only time i have known drugs to be impure is coke cut with paracetomal so the dealer can get more out what he has. i know it does happen, and its really bad when it does, but a lot of deaths happen through overdose or the person just being badly informed e.g. ectsasy use and drinking to much alcohol/not enough water/too much water.
Actually a lot of drugs are cut with a lot of weird stuff, some absolutely harmless like flour or oil and some (that I have seen) have been cut with petrol, weed killer, bleach; mostly stuff you would find around the house. Drug dealers are not bothered about their 'customers' as many will tell you at thend of the day there is always someone wanting to buy. Also they are not always sure what is in the product that they buy as the person above them has cut the product with something.
I liked the ads in mags a few years back which did advice users on what to do if they use. Also its important that club owners and security recodnise people who can be using and are aware of neccessary medical attention.
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Ariel4
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#62
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#62
(Original post by frost105)
Actually a lot of drugs are cut with a lot of weird stuff, some absolutely harmless like flour or oil and some (that I have seen) have been cut with petrol, weed killer, bleach; mostly stuff you would find around the house. Drug dealers are not bothered about their 'customers' as many will tell you at thend of the day there is always someone wanting to buy. Also they are not always sure what is in the product that they buy as the person above them has cut the product with something.
I liked the ads in mags a few years back which did advice users on what to do if they use. Also its important that club owners and security recodnise people who can be using and are aware of neccessary medical attention.
ive never had any bad experiences personally. security in clubs are really bad. my friend once took loads of pills and was in a proper state, her lips went purple and everything, but they just threw her out without any friends and left her. anything could have happened to her, nothing did, but i think they should have got someone to leave with her. not just let her go by herself. that was way harsh.
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frost105
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#63
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#63
(Original post by joppajoppa)
i agree legalising all drugs would be the best solution to the problem of over dosing etc, although the number of users would probably rise, it would remove many of the dangers involved with drugs such as impurity, gang crime etcetc +it would make controlling a habit cheaper and thus less socially destructive than it is at the moment
Severe punishment and better drufg education would be much better systems of control than legalisation. Wirral had one of the worst drug problems in the 80's nationally and through progressive policy and inter departmental working the progress over 10 years was astonishing.

(Original post by joppajoppa)
it would also help parts of the world such as columbia and afghanistan where drug lords control much of the country
Instead of drug lords taking over the system it would be multi nationals which would still contol farming and production and not neccesarily make the famers lives any better.
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frost105
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Ariel4)
i think that if it was regulated properly most people would rather buy their drugs from a shop, legally without breaking the law than off pushers in the street. i also schools should provide much better drugs education than they do now, and at a younger age.
All drugs will still be expensive if regulated by government as they will be taxed horrendously and to signify that there permanent use is not ok. This will push people into buying it cheaper else where.
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joppajoppa
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#65
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#65
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
so all experiences in which we can 'have a good time' are a merit, regardless of the possibile consequences?



please expand on 'help people creatively'. having to escape reality to achieve creativeness doesn't do the best for an individual's mental health.

do children often become addicted to the dizzy feeling experienced from a roundabout - do they crave the feeling and need to return everyday to enable them to get through the rest of the day?

drugs are not an extension of the so-called standard human behaviour, they are a manipulation.



an experience to be shared with others?!! i take it you haven't suffered the delights of severe addiction when your body starts shutting down and becomes dependent on things you once thought were recreational. I'm sure people at that extreme aspect of the spectrum originally shared your sentiments too.
ok, i dont take addictive illegal drugs and that is the most obvious draw back to drugs. However, alcohol addicition is far easier to achieve and as the behavioural effects of alcohol are far more violent in their nature, more damaging. You probably think of alcohol as a nice recreational thing at the moment in the same way i do about some non-addictive drugs i take. As such I think i would be in a better position personally if the dangers of impurity were not present and as they are, i make checks on what im doing to minimise these dangers [which pale in comparison to those of alcohol]

creativity thing: im a musician, and when i took shrooms last year, i began to have musical ideas which i tried my best to record. These later helped me be more creative. This drug almost certainly gave me a different perspective on the creative process. I read a poem once called 'Khubla Khan' which was inspired while the writer was taking opium. Many musicians use draw to help them create.... i could go on, but basically drugs are used extensively to help creativity and speaking from personal experience this neednt result in harm to the artist.

and the thing about the extension of human behaviour was on that body hits program on bbc3 i think, which i imagine had a decent scientific advisor working on it...
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Wild Thing
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#66
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#66
(Original post by technik)
drugs are for losers
:dito: well said :p:
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Ariel4
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#67
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(Original post by frost105)
All drugs will still be expensive if regulated by government as they will be taxed horrendously and to signify that there permanent use is not ok. This will push people into buying it cheaper else where.
i dont actually think the price would go up that much, as that would go agaisnt the whole point of legalizing drugs (stop all the criminality surrounding it). however i think it is unlikely to happen as ppl are so set agaisnt it. in amsterdamn they had no problems that i have heard of when they legalized weed.
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AngelofnoColour
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#68
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#68
:eek:, no wonder I got headaches.
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Muse
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#69
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(Original post by joppajoppa)
ok, i dont take addictive illegal drugs and that is the most obvious draw back to drugs. However, alcohol addicition is far easier to achieve and as the behavioural effects of alcohol are far more violent in their nature, more damaging.
where have i said that alcohol isn't a damaging drug? And as for 'alcohol addiction if far easier to achieve', this statement is meaningless unless you compare it with some well-used illegal drugs to put in contrast.

(Original post by joppajoppa)
You probably think of alcohol as a nice recreational thing at the moment in the same way i do about some non-addictive drugs i take.
once again, what have i said to suggest this?

(Original post by joppajoppa)
i make checks on what im doing to minimise these dangers [which pale in comparison to those of alcohol]
biochemical analysis? and i disagree about the dangers paling in comparison to alcohol, you haven't even specified which group of drugs you're referring to.

(Original post by joppajoppa)
creativity thing: im a musician, and when i took shrooms last year, i began to have musical ideas which i tried my best to record. These later helped me be more creative. This drug almost certainly gave me a different perspective on the creative process. I read a poem once called 'Khubla Khan' which was inspired while the writer was taking opium. Many musicians use draw to help them create.... i could go on, but basically drugs are used extensively to help creativity and speaking from personal experience this neednt result in harm to the artist.
now this is an interesting point. i've read a bit about this before, i've yet to see any compelling research.

Are hallucinogens able to cause a blossoming of creativity? Most researchers say this is not the case. Artists are not formed from their chemical experience; they must provide intelligence, feeling, talent and imagination (Masters and Houston, 1968).

Extraordinary experiences are what give artists their inspiration, the spark that ignites what is in the mind. That experience could be extensive traveling, religious exploration, or conversing with enlightened people; the hallucinogenic experience is just another visionary experience.

Just as traveling opens a person up to new cultural ideas, hallucinogens get him or her in touch with the idea that we are only aware of such a small piece of reality (Doblin et al., 1999). Even when drugs are not involved, the creative process itself requires an altered state of awareness in order to access the contents of the mind
(Original post by joppajoppa)
and the thing about the extension of human behaviour was on that body hits program on bbc3 i think, which i imagine had a decent scientific advisor working on it...
manipulation can equally be viewed as an extension of human behaviour.
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Ariel4
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#70
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#70
(Original post by BlueAngel)
:eek:, no wonder I got headaches.
lol! most solvents i have never seen the appeal of tbh. although are poppers a solvent? im not sure. they were fun wen i was younger buy the last time i did them they just seemed **** so i dont bother anymore.
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Seamen Staines
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#71
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#71
I find it funny though that some countries rely on drugs as their cheif trade, Afghanistan, Colombia.. you know the rest. I think legalising drugs would stop terrorists and drug barons from making so much money!! So nationalise drugs, the governemnt could do with the revenue too.
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Ariel4
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Seamen Staines)
I find it funny though that some countries rely on drugs as their cheif trade, Afghanistan, Colombia.. you know the rest. I think legalising drugs would stop terrorists and drug barons from making so much money!! So nationalise drugs, the governemnt could do with the revenue too.
i was told that in colombia you could get a gram of coke for £5-£10, not sure how true this tho!
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Sarky
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#73
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#73
I've smoked weed, but thats all.
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Just_Peachy
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#74
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#74
only drugs i do are caffeine, nicotine and alcohol but have done weed but nah i found it a bit of a waste of time drugs dont really appeal to me, alcohol pleases me well enough
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olddeblasio
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#75
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#75
All of you advocating the legalizing of drugs need to have a real think about the implications. It is absolutely ludacrous that a substance such as heroin would be nationalized and sold in public! There are no compelling arguments for legalizing drugs.... "the government could use the money" .... if the government are that short of money I would happily see a tax increase rather than live in a society where drugs are legal.
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Just_Peachy
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#76
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#76
woah ok lets calm it down , getting into a very good debate but lets not enforce peoples opinions onto each other just whatever you do dont take a chill pill drugs are bad okayyyy
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Hide
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#77
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#77
(Original post by feedtheflamingo)
All of you advocating the legalizing of drugs need to have a real think about the implications. It is absolutely ludacrous that a substance such as heroin would be nationalized and sold in public! There are no compelling arguments for legalizing drugs.... "the government could use the money" .... if the government are that short of money I would happily see a tax increase rather than live in a society where drugs are legal.
I wouldn't openly advocate legalising drugs but it IS the liberty of a person to be able to do them. The law should be on WHERE these are done and WHO the person affects whilst on them. I've done marijuana many times in the past, I don't even count it as a drug. I believe its my civil liberty to do it, but NOT if I then go out driving and kill someone because of it.
However these are all pretty grey areas, its probably best for them to stay illegal, because then it also confines drug users to places that aren't public (for the most part).
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Ariel4
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#78
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#78
(Original post by feedtheflamingo)
All of you advocating the legalizing of drugs need to have a real think about the implications. It is absolutely ludacrous that a substance such as heroin would be nationalized and sold in public! There are no compelling arguments for legalizing drugs.... "the government could use the money" .... if the government are that short of money I would happily see a tax increase rather than live in a society where drugs are legal.
woah.... i wasnt saying it should definitley be done right now! just that i think it would succed if the legislation was drafted, planned and carried out extremely carefully. i didnt say heroin should be sold down the offie that would be taking it a tad to far! drugs like heroin and crack should be legally available on the nhs for those who are allready addicts, this would prevent a large amount of crime. if drug users were provided with places to use, out of the public eye, i think this would be a huge improvement on smack heads shooting up in the kiddies play park and leaving their dirty, possibly aids ridden needles lying around for little children to fall on and cut themselves with. also, this would significantly lower the chance of an addict taking your tv or mugging you so that they can buy their drugs. and as hide said, it is up to the person what drugs they take.
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olddeblasio
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#79
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#79
I wouldn't openly advocate legalising drugs but it IS the liberty of a person to be able to do them
Personal liberty does not mean license to do whatever you want. Should a person be allowed to kill another because of "liberty" ? You don't advocate legalising drugs but it is your liberty to take them? So one can disregard laws because "liberty" usurps them?

I wasn't arguing with you personally, I was quite alarmed by -

i think that if it was regulated properly most people would rather buy their drugs from a shop, legally without breaking the law than off pushers in the street.
As for legalisation on the NHS for people who are already addicts, methadone is already available and many studies have shown that it isn't an effective way of weaning people off drugs. Personally I think locking someone in isolation for a month with adequate medical provision would be the best way of forcing people to rid themselves of heroin. This would not be prison so the emphasis would not be on punishment but on helping the individual.

I also think that laws should act as something of a moral benchmark. Inevitably people will always break the law and see it as harmless, that doesn't mean that we should repeal the law - what sort of message does this send out?

this would significantly lower the chance of an addict taking your tv or mugging you so that they can buy their drugs. and as hide said, it is up to the person what drugs they take.
I am a firm believer of getting rid of the cause of the problem, I'd rather see a society where people would never need to do that because they weren't addicted, not because they can get it for free from the NHS.
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Ariel4
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#80
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#80
(Original post by feedtheflamingo)
Personal liberty does not mean license to do whatever you want. Should a person be allowed to kill another because of "liberty" ? You don't advocate legalising drugs but it is your liberty to take them? So one can disregard laws because "liberty" usurps them?

I wasn't arguing with you personally, I was quite alarmed by -



As for legalisation on the NHS for people who are already addicts, methadone is already available and many studies have shown that it isn't an effective way of weaning people off drugs. Personally I think locking someone in isolation for a month with adequate medical provision would be the best way of forcing people to rid themselves of heroin. This would not be prison so the emphasis would not be on punishment but on helping the individual.

I also think that laws should act as something of a moral benchmark. Inevitably people will always break the law and see it as harmless, that doesn't mean that we should repeal the law - what sort of message does this send out?


I am a firm believer of getting rid of the cause of the problem, I'd rather see a society where people would never need to do that because they weren't addicted, not because they can get it for free from the NHS.
no, i know your not arguing with me personally, sorry i if came across as being overly aggresive, didnt mean to! the thing is i think that drugs are a way of life for people , they seem to be a part of society now. i think that if heroin was availble on the nhs it would be a way to regulate the amount that they take e.g. only being allowed so much in a certain amount of time. it would not work as a form of recovery, i think that methodone has proved that this does not work. it would just keep them from doing it on the streets etc. it is a sad fact that drug use will probably always be a problem, there doesnt seem really seem to be a way around this. i agree with you that it is sad that people feel that their lifes are so bad that the only way to get away from their problems is to be smacked out their faces all the time, but for some people it is a means of escape from horrible things that they have suffered through no fault of their own, and giving them a way to do it in a safe environment could be providing them with something, and hopefully through doing this they will realise that people do care about them, giving them a reason to stop. i also agree that a good method would be to lock them in isolation is a very good idea. i just think people who have serious drug problems are not happy and already feel isolated without isolating them from the law. as drugs are illegal it provides some horrible people with an easy income and they take adavantage of many people and ruin many lives in the process. legalizing it would be a step towards stopping this.

i think there is an argument about whether laws should enforce morality or not, do you study law by any chance if so hart/devlin debate (actually quite interesting)? i think this debate is tricky. it is agaisnt some peoples morals to take drugs but some people hold the moral belief that they should be allowed to harm themselves as they like, who morals should the law support? i think harming others is agaisnt a huge populations morality, therefore it should be enforced. i think that there is likely to be little difference between the amount of ppl that think they should be allowed to harm themselves and ppl who do not. (suicide is no longer illegal, this is harming yourself).
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