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The answers to this question are not going to help you, because they will vary massively. Some get pupillage before the Bar course, some during it, and some six years after it. There is almost endless experience that can be relevant to a pupillage application. The problem with the question is that you're hoping that you can gain some insight as to how long it should take you to get pupillage, and what sort of experience you can get to secure pupillage yourself. But that misses the point and asks the wrong question. When sets go into pupillage sifting or interviews, they don't have an archetypal applicant that they are looking for. They're looking for certain characteristics and skills, but it's not a tick box exercise. Every year I am surprised not just by the quality of applicants, but the things they have done and how they come across on paper as well as in person. The best pupillage applicants understand what skills are needed to be a good barrister, and then they focus on those to genuinely make themselves into a strong candidate. They don't ask what sets want to see; they develop their own skills and then show sets who they are. And that is the right way to go about it.
Reply 2
@Crazy Jamie Sorry to butt in on the post, but I just wondered if you could give any advice on whether it’s important where one takes the Bar Course these days? Particularly in light of ICCA now offering their own course and touting that they get more students into pupillage than any other provider. I was considering returning ‘home’ to the NE where there are now 2 providers, to live and do the course locally to save on costs of living in London, but I’m worried it might affect my chances. Appreciate there’s a lot more to pupillage than just the course, but I would welcome your insight given there are a growing number of providers. Thank you.
Original post by BarryScott2022
@Crazy Jamie Sorry to butt in on the post, but I just wondered if you could give any advice on whether it’s important where one takes the Bar Course these days? Particularly in light of ICCA now offering their own course and touting that they get more students into pupillage than any other provider. I was considering returning ‘home’ to the NE where there are now 2 providers, to live and do the course locally to save on costs of living in London, but I’m worried it might affect my chances. Appreciate there’s a lot more to pupillage than just the course, but I would welcome your insight given there are a growing number of providers. Thank you.
The ICCA describes their course as a bar course still, so it appears to be the same thing but without LLM addition that allows students to use a postgraduate loan.
Reply 4
Thank you. I am not considering the LLM route at this stage so it’s matter-less in that respect. I’m interested to know if it particularly makes much difference where you do the bar course. I’m aware that Crazy Jamie is involved with pupillage applications at their chambers, hence why I posed the question.
Original post by BarryScott2022
Thank you. I am not considering the LLM route at this stage so it’s matter-less in that respect. I’m interested to know if it particularly makes much difference where you do the bar course. I’m aware that Crazy Jamie is involved with pupillage applications at their chambers, hence why I posed the question.
Reply 6
Original post by BarryScott2022
Thank you. I am not considering the LLM route at this stage so it’s matter-less in that respect. I’m interested to know if it particularly makes much difference where you do the bar course. I’m aware that Crazy Jamie is involved with pupillage applications at their chambers, hence why I posed the question.
I am involved with pupillage applications at my chambers (not the same chambers as Crazy Jamie).
In my chambers we don't care where people do the Bar Course. We don't see much difference between the various course providers for the GDL or the Bar Course.
We recruit university-blind, but during our selection process candidates who have graduated from the leading universities often tend to out-compete candidates from less well-known universities. This is probably because those candidates (a) did very well at school and (b) may have been better taught and/or have had to work harder at the most competitive universities. On average, applicant A who was at Oxbridge/UCL/LSE etc tends to arrive knowing more about the law than applicant B who went to one of the new universities. There are of course exceptions, and unlike some chambers we are not all Oxbridge/Russell Group.
We are, in Bar terms, probably Silver Circle (not that there really is such a thing). I used to be in a Magic Circle chambers where it was and is practically impossible to obtain a pupillage without a truly stellar academic CV.
Good luck!
(edited 10 months ago)
Reply 7
Original post by Stiffy Byng
I am involved with pupillage applications at my chambers (not the same chambers as Crazy Jamie).
In my chambers we don't care where people do the Bar Course. We don't see much difference between the various course providers for the GDL or the Bar Course.
We recruit university-blind, but during our selection process candidates who have graduated from the leading universities often tend to out-compete candidates from less well-known universities. This is probably because those candidates (a) did very well at school and (b) may have been better taught and/or have had to work harder at the most competitive universities. On average, applicant A who was at Oxbridge/UCL/LSE etc tends to arrive knowing more about the law than applicant B who went to one of the new universities. There are of course exceptions, and unlike some chambers we are not all Oxbridge/Russell Group.
We are, in Bar terms, probably Silver Circle (not that there really is such a thing). I used to be in a Magic Circle chambers where it was and is practically impossible to obtain a pupillage without a truly stellar academic CV.
Good luck!
In my chambers we don't care where people do the Bar Course. We don't see much difference between the various course providers for the GDL or the Bar Course.
We recruit university-blind, but during our selection process candidates who have graduated from the leading universities often tend to out-compete candidates from less well-known universities. This is probably because those candidates (a) did very well at school and (b) may have been better taught and/or have had to work harder at the most competitive universities. On average, applicant A who was at Oxbridge/UCL/LSE etc tends to arrive knowing more about the law than applicant B who went to one of the new universities. There are of course exceptions, and unlike some chambers we are not all Oxbridge/Russell Group.
We are, in Bar terms, probably Silver Circle (not that there really is such a thing). I used to be in a Magic Circle chambers where it was and is practically impossible to obtain a pupillage without a truly stellar academic CV.
Good luck!
Thank you for your reply. I’m at a top 10 RG and agree about blind recruitment, you can often tell by the opportunities taken and of course by academics as students do tend to have higher qualifications on the whole. But I really wasn’t sure about the Bar Course, lots of my peers are saying it’s best to do it in London and ICCA certainly seems to be selling itself as the ‘top dog’. Financially for me it would make sense to go ‘home’ and do it there.
Another question if I may. Our university gives out very few firsts. It is known for it and for being academically rigorous having taught law for many years. I’m seeing more and more candidates from ‘new’ universities get firsts and then pupillage. I do wonder if some institutions suffer from grade inflation, whereas some don’t and how that is dealt with within the recruitment process when it is blind? Or is it not, a first is a first after all…?
Original post by BarryScott2022
@Crazy Jamie Sorry to butt in on the post, but I just wondered if you could give any advice on whether it’s important where one takes the Bar Course these days? Particularly in light of ICCA now offering their own course and touting that they get more students into pupillage than any other provider. I was considering returning ‘home’ to the NE where there are now 2 providers, to live and do the course locally to save on costs of living in London, but I’m worried it might affect my chances. Appreciate there’s a lot more to pupillage than just the course, but I would welcome your insight given there are a growing number of providers. Thank you.
Bar course provider doesn't matter for pupillage applications. I don't know of a single set that takes it into account. There is always talk about particular courses being better than others in terms of the quality of the teaching, but I've not seen any evidence or indeed any suggestion of that difference being sufficient to actually impact on someone's chances of getting pupillage. And besides, even if you were trying to get onto a 'better' course, it's extremely difficult to know year to year which ones may be better or worse. By contrast, taking the course somewhere that you're familiar with and/or is financially a better option is going to have a definite and tangible impact on wellbeing, so is the better bet to make. Go home and save some money.
Original post by BarryScott2022
Another question if I may. Our university gives out very few firsts. It is known for it and for being academically rigorous having taught law for many years. I’m seeing more and more candidates from ‘new’ universities get firsts and then pupillage. I do wonder if some institutions suffer from grade inflation, whereas some don’t and how that is dealt with within the recruitment process when it is blind? Or is it not, a first is a first after all…?
Vanishingly few and quite possibly no barristers sifting pupillage applications are going to be aware of grade inflation at particular universities, how hard it is to get particular grades at particular universities or even where particular universities rank. And that is even if they know the university. As with Stiffy, we sift blind to university as well, and it's becoming more common. At the same time, no one gets an interview because they have a First. It helps, but it's one piece to an overall puzzle that you're building up. Ultimately it is quality that shows out. Even if an average candidate gets to interview because of inflated grades, they're not likely to go further. Whilst if you get a 2:1 but have developed into a better candidate due to pushing yourself harder or being taught more rigorously, that's ultimately going to benefit you more than a more token First from elsewhere. The rest of your written application is likely to be more impressive, and you're likely to give a better account of yourself in interview. As Stiffy said, better candidates do tend to come from better universities. That's not necessarily because they're taught better, though they sometimes are, but because candidates who have shown good academic performance throughout their lives are better prospects and are more likely to go to better universities. There is a chicken and egg element to it. Equally, going to a lower ranked university doesn't mean you can't be good enough to obtain pupillage, but purely statistically, candidates who have done poorly in or haven't done GCSEs or A-Levels are less likely to be able to reach that level required for pupillage.
Reply 9
I agree with Crazy Jamie, as I invariably do. We would make for a very boring Divisional Court or Court of Appeal.
I will, however, be blunt and say that some universities award Firsts that are nonsense. Standards at some universities are lower than at others. The quality of someone who has a good 2.1 or a First from a university which applies rigorous standards will tend to show above that of a person who has a First from a university which gives them out with the rations.
I add that some very able people go to less than fabulous universities. Money and/or family circumstances and/or nerves and/or exam disasters may preclude some able candidates from going to leading universities.
OP, I suggest that you take the least expensive option for the Bar Course.
I will, however, be blunt and say that some universities award Firsts that are nonsense. Standards at some universities are lower than at others. The quality of someone who has a good 2.1 or a First from a university which applies rigorous standards will tend to show above that of a person who has a First from a university which gives them out with the rations.
I add that some very able people go to less than fabulous universities. Money and/or family circumstances and/or nerves and/or exam disasters may preclude some able candidates from going to leading universities.
OP, I suggest that you take the least expensive option for the Bar Course.
(edited 10 months ago)
Reply 10
Fabulous, that all makes absolute sense. It’s good to hear it from people at the coalface of the profession. Thank you both for your time and for being so frank. Onwards & upwards🤞🏻.
Reply 11
You're welcome.
By the way, five anecdotes:
My nephew, with an Oxford 2.1 in classics and a GDL, took two rounds of applications to obtain pupillage. He is now a tenant at a good mixed civil and crime set.
Another nephew, with an Oxford First in Law and a BCL, obtained pupillage in his first round of applications. He is now a tenant at a well known public law/human rights chambers.
A friend recently obtained pupillage at a good Commercial/Chancery chambers but this took him three rounds of applications. He has an Oxford First in Modern History and an LLM/GDL. He also has a slightly awkward personality, and I think he didn't interview well at first.
I know two people who struggled to obtain pupillages in the nineties and noughties (one is an British-African-Caribbean man (Bristol), the other a British-Indian woman (KCL)). They each started in poor quality chambers. They have moved several times. One is now a Silk in a Magic Circle set, and the other is a rising junior in a good mixed chambers, an arbitrator, and is thinking of applying for Silk.
By the way, five anecdotes:
My nephew, with an Oxford 2.1 in classics and a GDL, took two rounds of applications to obtain pupillage. He is now a tenant at a good mixed civil and crime set.
Another nephew, with an Oxford First in Law and a BCL, obtained pupillage in his first round of applications. He is now a tenant at a well known public law/human rights chambers.
A friend recently obtained pupillage at a good Commercial/Chancery chambers but this took him three rounds of applications. He has an Oxford First in Modern History and an LLM/GDL. He also has a slightly awkward personality, and I think he didn't interview well at first.
I know two people who struggled to obtain pupillages in the nineties and noughties (one is an British-African-Caribbean man (Bristol), the other a British-Indian woman (KCL)). They each started in poor quality chambers. They have moved several times. One is now a Silk in a Magic Circle set, and the other is a rising junior in a good mixed chambers, an arbitrator, and is thinking of applying for Silk.
(edited 10 months ago)
Reply 12
.
Thank you for those. I can’t ‘rate’ your post as I’ve already rated one recently.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
You're welcome.
By the way, five anecdotes:
My nephew, with an Oxford 2.1 in classics and a GDL, took two rounds of applications to obtain pupillage. He is now a tenant at a good mixed civil and crime set.
Another nephew, with an Oxford First in Law and a BCL, obtained pupillage in his first round of applications. He is now a tenant at a well known public law/human rights chambers.
A friend recently obtained pupillage at a good Commercial/Chancery chambers but this took him three rounds of applications. He has an Oxford First in Modern History and an LLM/GDL. He also has a slightly awkward personality, and I think he didn't interview well at first.
I know two people who struggled to obtain pupillages in the nineties and noughties (one is an British-African-Caribbean man (Bristol), the other a British-Indian woman (KCL)). They each started in poor quality chambers. They have moved several times. One is now a Silk in a Magic Circle set, and the other is a rising junior in a good mixed chambers, an arbitrator, and is thinking of applying for Silk.
By the way, five anecdotes:
My nephew, with an Oxford 2.1 in classics and a GDL, took two rounds of applications to obtain pupillage. He is now a tenant at a good mixed civil and crime set.
Another nephew, with an Oxford First in Law and a BCL, obtained pupillage in his first round of applications. He is now a tenant at a well known public law/human rights chambers.
A friend recently obtained pupillage at a good Commercial/Chancery chambers but this took him three rounds of applications. He has an Oxford First in Modern History and an LLM/GDL. He also has a slightly awkward personality, and I think he didn't interview well at first.
I know two people who struggled to obtain pupillages in the nineties and noughties (one is an British-African-Caribbean man (Bristol), the other a British-Indian woman (KCL)). They each started in poor quality chambers. They have moved several times. One is now a Silk in a Magic Circle set, and the other is a rising junior in a good mixed chambers, an arbitrator, and is thinking of applying for Silk.
Thank you for those. I can’t ‘rate’ your post as I’ve already rated one recently.
(edited 10 months ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
You're welcome.
By the way, five anecdotes:
My nephew, with an Oxford 2.1 in classics and a GDL, took two rounds of applications to obtain pupillage. He is now a tenant at a good mixed civil and crime set.
Another nephew, with an Oxford First in Law and a BCL, obtained pupillage in his first round of applications. He is now a tenant at a well known public law/human rights chambers.
A friend recently obtained pupillage at a good Commercial/Chancery chambers but this took him three rounds of applications. He has an Oxford First in Modern History and an LLM/GDL. He also has a slightly awkward personality, and I think he didn't interview well at first.
I know two people who struggled to obtain pupillages in the nineties and noughties (one is an British-African-Caribbean man (Bristol), the other a British-Indian woman (KCL)). They each started in poor quality chambers. They have moved several times. One is now a Silk in a Magic Circle set, and the other is a rising junior in a good mixed chambers, an arbitrator, and is thinking of applying for Silk.
By the way, five anecdotes:
My nephew, with an Oxford 2.1 in classics and a GDL, took two rounds of applications to obtain pupillage. He is now a tenant at a good mixed civil and crime set.
Another nephew, with an Oxford First in Law and a BCL, obtained pupillage in his first round of applications. He is now a tenant at a well known public law/human rights chambers.
A friend recently obtained pupillage at a good Commercial/Chancery chambers but this took him three rounds of applications. He has an Oxford First in Modern History and an LLM/GDL. He also has a slightly awkward personality, and I think he didn't interview well at first.
I know two people who struggled to obtain pupillages in the nineties and noughties (one is an British-African-Caribbean man (Bristol), the other a British-Indian woman (KCL)). They each started in poor quality chambers. They have moved several times. One is now a Silk in a Magic Circle set, and the other is a rising junior in a good mixed chambers, an arbitrator, and is thinking of applying for Silk.
Would you say SOAS and Nottingham University are competitive universities for pupillage? I considered taking an LLM at either one if not the university I took undergrad at.
Original post by ac1801
Would you say SOAS and Nottingham University are competitive universities for pupillage? I considered taking an LLM at either one if not the university I took undergrad at.
Another bazza popping in - commerical chancery, luckily got pupillage first time, First from a london uni.
LLMs are good if you want to do one, but they are not going to move the dial all that much. I know we give them limited credence.
I've heard good things about the ICCA course, but I am biased as one of my tutors helped design it.
Original post by Blayze
Another bazza popping in - commerical chancery, luckily got pupillage first time, First from a london uni.
LLMs are good if you want to do one, but they are not going to move the dial all that much. I know we give them limited credence.
I've heard good things about the ICCA course, but I am biased as one of my tutors helped design it.
LLMs are good if you want to do one, but they are not going to move the dial all that much. I know we give them limited credence.
I've heard good things about the ICCA course, but I am biased as one of my tutors helped design it.
How much credence is given to the bar course grade would you say?
Reply 16
Original post by ac1801
Would you say SOAS and Nottingham University are competitive universities for pupillage? I considered taking an LLM at either one if not the university I took undergrad at.
Personally, I’d say Nottingham is a way better bet than SOAS for an LLM. Nottingham is consistently a top 10 for law and a RG. It’s also renowned for legal research with the Human Rights Centre etc. Obviously SOAS is in London which can be an advantage for the Inns and for minis, but Nottingham is just over an hour away by train so not a deal breaker.
Are you considering doing a separate LLM then the Bar Course after? Nottingham Uni doesn’t offer the Bar Course. I’ve heard that LLMs make little difference for the Bar, hence I’m not really considering one. I think many do an LLM because of the available funding with the Bar Course rather than for the value it brings to your career.
Original post by BarryScott2022
Personally, I’d say Nottingham is a way better bet than SOAS for an LLM. Nottingham is consistently a top 10 for law and a RG. It’s also renowned for legal research with the Human Rights Centre etc. Obviously SOAS is in London which can be an advantage for the Inns and for minis, but Nottingham is just over an hour away by train so not a deal breaker.
Are you considering doing a separate LLM then the Bar Course after? Nottingham Uni doesn’t offer the Bar Course. I’ve heard that LLMs make little difference for the Bar, hence I’m not really considering one. I think many do an LLM because of the available funding with the Bar Course rather than for the value it brings to your career.
Are you considering doing a separate LLM then the Bar Course after? Nottingham Uni doesn’t offer the Bar Course. I’ve heard that LLMs make little difference for the Bar, hence I’m not really considering one. I think many do an LLM because of the available funding with the Bar Course rather than for the value it brings to your career.
Reply 18
Original post by ac1801
Yes I am considering a separate LLM for both personal reasons and a desire to improve my application. But also because of other potential career avenues away from the bar would make an LLM advantageous.
Fair enough. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Reply 19
Original post by ac1801
Would you say SOAS and Nottingham University are competitive universities for pupillage? I considered taking an LLM at either one if not the university I took undergrad at.
SOAS and Nottingham are competitive universities for pupillage.
People get hung up on rankings, but the reality is that the niceties of a university coming 4th for this or 23rd for that in some made up table do not matter save on here. Remember that all of the ranking tables are compiled using often bizarre and meaningless measurements of performance.
Think of it this way: The people who become barristers are mainly but not exclusively those who have in one way or another won the glittering prizes of the UK education system. They have usually done well at school. They then apply to universities. Oxford and Cambridge can only take in X number of new undergraduates each year. The many talented applicants who don't make the final cut go to a bunch of universities such as (in no order) UCL, LSE, KCL, QMUL, SOAS, Durham, Warwick, Bristol, Manchester, Nottingham, Birmingham, etc.
Those who obtain pupillages have often graduated from one or more of those universities. The ones who have won the shiniest prizes (Oxbridge Firsts, Harvard LLMs, that sort of thing) end up in the shiniest chambers, and the others end up in good chambers. Obtaining pupillage is insanely competitive. Fortune favours not merely the brave but also the incredibly hard working and, to be frank, those who can find the funds to stick it out.
Can someone with a 2.1 from an obscure university obtain a pupillage? Yes, if they have the personal qualities. But the odds are against them. Message: study hard in school and university, kids!
That's just how it is. The Bar is a learned profession. Being a barrister is a career of life long study, as is being a doctor or an engineer. Barristers must be bookish people who know how to study hard, fast, and well.
Barristering is also a performance art, so barristers need self-belief, stamina, and psychological and emotional resilience, because litigation is an intellectual contact sport. Not for nothing are alcohol and substance abuse, relationship failure, and assorted mental health issues more common at the Bar than some might suppose. It's the best job ever, but it's also a tough job.
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