Philosophy in Classics at Oxford?

Hello!

I'm currently trying to decide between putting in my Classics application to Oxford or Cambridge. I think overall I prefer the Oxford course (I quite like the sound of a little longer course, and 8 papers at Greats (vs. 4 at Part II afaik!?) sounds brilliant), but the slightly more philosophy orientated worries me - it's not a subject I've ever particularly enjoyed. I think I could probably bear doing one paper at Mods (I do have some passing interest...) but can anyone comment on how important it is to the course? Especially because it sounds like there's some interview in it or something? (which I saw in passing on a few college websites, but information seems lacking...)

And while I'm asking - is it normal that Oxford has so little information about the CAT this late in the year? Or is there something special/particular that they're doing this year? Everything seems to just say there's information coming!

Thank you :smile:

Reply 1

xyz1234567

You have to do one philosophy paper at Mods but after that you can drop it completely if you want.

Some colleges will include philosophy in the interview, others won’t. For any subject, the way interviews are handled will vary between colleges (and potentially be refreshed each year). Most colleges will send more detailed information in their invitation letter if you get an interview.

Information about the CAT was late because the testing provider was changing. There is more information up now. The format of the test has not changed.

Reply 2

Stiffy Byng

Slightly off topic, but possibly of interest -

https://medium.com/in-medias-res/greek-and-latin-are-finding-a-voice-at-oxford-8c96adfaed87

Reply 3

tlppi

Definitely of interest!
That being said, people seem to really be heralding this as a great step forward in increasing diversity and access to the classics. I can't help but feel this is about to widen the gap the last decade has come leaps and bounds in closing: if this new approach can suddenly create brilliant grades (because what else does England care about) for Latin students, the very few teachers able to teach like this are going to be snapped up by Oxbridge and public schools (at which point those privileged students will a. have an easier time getting into oxbridge and b. be far more primed for the methods of teaching they look like they'll be employing soon).
That the inspiration for this approach in ox, as cited in the article, the Accademia Vivarium Novum (also where loads of the people active in the sphere have studied), is a male-only institution seems really... secret history to me (to be honest this all does).

That being said... I would love to learn like this one day.

Reply 4

Stiffy Byng

Original post by tlppi

Definitely of interest!
That being said, people seem to really be heralding this as a great step forward in increasing diversity and access to the classics. I can't help but feel this is about to widen the gap the last decade has come leaps and bounds in closing: if this new approach can suddenly create brilliant grades (because what else does England care about) for Latin students, the very few teachers able to teach like this are going to be snapped up by Oxbridge and public schools (at which point those privileged students will a. have an easier time getting into oxbridge and b. be far more primed for the methods of teaching they look like they'll be employing soon).
That the inspiration for this approach in ox, as cited in the article, the Accademia Vivarium Novum (also where loads of the people active in the sphere have studied), is a male-only institution seems really... secret history to me (to be honest this all does).
That being said... I would love to learn like this one day.

Start a rival academy sharing Latin more widely!

My daughter was taught Latin in a dull way, because of a duff curriculum. Gobbets of the Aeneid without context. No Caesar, no Cicero, no Classical Civilisation. She gave up Latin after GCSE, despite her teacher praising her as the best Latinist he had taught.

Mel Gibson's film "The Passion of the Christ" is horrible far right wing Catholic torture porn, but in it the Judeans speak Aramaic and Old Hebrew, and the Romans speak Latin. Pontius Pilate speaks posh Latin. His soldiers speak street Latin and sound like the back streets of Naples.

I wish that Ridley Scott had done "Gladiator" in Latin. But all we got was Maximus shouting "Roma Victor!" after defeating the Germans. Every classicist in the room then says "You mean Roma Wiktor!"

Channel 4 once tried a sitcom partly in Latin. It was quite good.

Google "Chelmsford 123". Some of it is on youtube.

(edited 8 months ago)

Reply 5

Stiffy Byng

Original post by tlppi

Definitely of interest!
That being said, people seem to really be heralding this as a great step forward in increasing diversity and access to the classics. I can't help but feel this is about to widen the gap the last decade has come leaps and bounds in closing: if this new approach can suddenly create brilliant grades (because what else does England care about) for Latin students, the very few teachers able to teach like this are going to be snapped up by Oxbridge and public schools (at which point those privileged students will a. have an easier time getting into oxbridge and b. be far more primed for the methods of teaching they look like they'll be employing soon).
That the inspiration for this approach in ox, as cited in the article, the Accademia Vivarium Novum (also where loads of the people active in the sphere have studied), is a male-only institution seems really... secret history to me (to be honest this all does).
That being said... I would love to learn like this one day.

PS: that Accademia does sound dodgy. Check for Oriel and Peterhouse connections and be on guard for Jesuits!

Reply 6

tlppi

Original post by Stiffy Byng

PS: that Accademia does sound dodgy. Check for Oriel and Peterhouse connections and be on guard for Jesuits!

potentially one of the strangest yet funniest threads i've read on this forum: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2241692

bizzare sounding place.

Reply 7

tlppi

Original post by Stiffy Byng

Start a rival academy sharing Latin more widely!
My daughter was taught Latin in a dull way, because of a duff curriculum. Gobbets of the Aeneid without context. No Caesar, no Cicero, no Classical Civilisation. She gave up Latin after GCSE, despite her teacher praising her as the best Latinist he had taught.
Mel Gibson's film "The Passion of the Christ" is horrible far right wing Catholic torture porn, but in it the Judeans speak Aramaic and Old Hebrew, and the Romans speak Latin. Pontius Pilate speaks posh Latin. His soldiers speak street Latin and sound like the back streets of Naples.
I wish that Ridley Scott had done "Gladiator" in Latin. But all we got was Maximus shouting "Roma Victor!" after defeating the Germans. Every classicist in the room then says "You mean Roma Wiktor!"
Channel 4 once tried a sitcom partly in Latin. It was quite good.
Google "Chelmsford 123". Some of it is on youtube.

yeah i'm lucky in that my (state!) school offers classical civ and latin (both of which i've done for GCSE+A-level), I think it's a much better education contextualised like that. Still has a long way to come though. at a level we only study cicero and virgil (whereas at gcse we studied from an anthology) - i see both's benefits but i miss the variety a lot.

I actually had a trainee teacher come in for a term and he did a lot of spoken latin which was super interesting, and I loved it.

will now be doing a deepdive on strange british latin sitcoms i guess? thanks! (though sounds like i'll give passion of the christ a miss... much as the latin intrigues me)

Reply 8

sfp04

To go back to your original question, as others have said, you don’t have to do much philosophy if you don’t want to. That said, I’d suggest keeping an open mind even if it’s not something you’ve enjoyed in the past; very few students study any real philosophy at school, and even for those who do, it’s usually nothing like university-level philosophy. I do PPE and arrived expecting philosophy to be my least favourite of the three, but it’s now my favourite!

Reply 9

Stiffy Byng

Mel Gibson is an unpleasant religious nutcase, and Braveheart and The Patriot are rubbish, but Gibson was epic as Mad Max, and he sometimes knows how to direct a film. He made one called Apocalypto about pre-Columbian South Americans using authentic languages. His Jesus film has weird theology and needlessly graphic violence after Jesus gets arrested, but in other respects it's an interesting film.

To cheer you up afterwards you could watch this, in which John Cleese is the very incarnation of my Latin Master Mr Dunn, although Mr Dunn wore 1970s cool dude threads and not a Centurion's uniform. His wit was sharper than any sword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjOfQfxmTLQ

Reply 10

Stiffy Byng

Original post by tlppi

potentially one of the strangest yet funniest threads i've read on this forum: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2241692
bizzare sounding place.

Corvii lapida!

Reply 11

Stiffy Byng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7uuMphhEX8

Reply 12

elilast

I've just finished a Classics degree at Oxford, I did my one required philosophy paper at Mods and then completely abandoned it haha. I think quite a lot of people are not incredibly interested in philosophy, it's pretty common just to do the 1 required paper and then drop it.

Reply 13

Stiffy Byng

Original post by tlppi

yeah i'm lucky in that my (state!) school offers classical civ and latin (both of which i've done for GCSE+A-level), I think it's a much better education contextualised like that. Still has a long way to come though. at a level we only study cicero and virgil (whereas at gcse we studied from an anthology) - i see both's benefits but i miss the variety a lot.
I actually had a trainee teacher come in for a term and he did a lot of spoken latin which was super interesting, and I loved it.
will now be doing a deepdive on strange british latin sitcoms i guess? thanks! (though sounds like i'll give passion of the christ a miss... much as the latin intrigues me)

Your school sounds great! Back in the day, my comprehensive school taught me the Iliad and other Greek things in English in the first and second forms (years 7 and 8), and from the third form (year 9) I studied Latin, with lots of context about Roman history and civilisation. For O Level (GCSE) I studied Cicero's In Verrem and Caesar's De Bello Gallico. I opted to do an A Level in Ancient History (Roman Britain, Greece vs Persia, and the Peloponnesian War, with Thucydides in Rex Warner's translation). Thus I had a State-funded semi-classical education (Latin, some translated Greek). The Oxford entrance exam for Modern History included papers in Latin and a modern language (I chose French). I used both languages throughout the course and was examined on them. Nowadays I still use a bit of Latin in my job as an international disputes barrister, especially in the field of private international law (also called the conflict of laws).

My daughter's posh private school offered Latin and Greek, but both subjects appeared to be fading, and, as I mentioned above, my daughter did well in Latin but acquired little knowledge of and no enduring love for Classical civilisation. I think this a shame, as we still live in the World made by Greece and Rome.

I remember someone once saying to me that Rome is irrelevant, while we stood at Bank junction in the City of London, surrounded by nineteenth century classical architecture covered in Latin inscriptions. Walk from Bank to the Gherkin, and you can see this.