Law degree advice

Hi I am in a difficult situation, as I have received several competitive offers from universities and apprenticeships.

Uni offers:
Oxford (Ba)
LSE (Llb)
UCL (Llb)
Kings (Llb)

I have also got an apprentice offer from Allen and Overy (magic circle firm)

My aim is to ultimately end up in big law. I believe the best route to do this is through Allen and Overy’s apprenticeship but my parents think that uni will make my job prospects more likely.

For reference my predicted grades were A*A*A

Any advice would be appreciated?

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Reply 1

thegeek888

Original post by Infinity9609

Hi I am in a difficult situation, as I have received several competitive offers from universities and apprenticeships.
Uni offers:
Oxford (Ba)
LSE (Llb)
UCL (Llb)
Kings (Llb)
I have also got an apprentice offer from Allen and Overy (magic circle firm)
My aim is to ultimately end up in big law. I believe the best route to do this is through Allen and Overy’s apprenticeship but my parents think that uni will make my job prospects more likely.
For reference my predicted grades were A*A*A
Any advice would be appreciated?

Oxford.

Reply 2

Stiffy Byng

I recommend that you go to university. University is about much more than what career you follow. It's an opportunity for personal growth in many ways. A law degree from one of the universities you mention will make you a competitive candidate if and when you seek a legal career.

In addition, I would not make a commitment to Big Law at this stage. There are many ways to work in the law, and Big Law is not necessarily the most fulfilling way.

Why do you wish to work in Big Law? The idea and the reality may not be the same. I'm a commercial barrister, so I see Big Law close up, warts and all. It's not always pretty.

Reply 3

Stiffy Byng

I add -

(1) If you really have a choice between Oxford, LSE, UCL, and KCL, they're all good, but I'm biased in favour of Oxford. Choose whichever of those universities you like best. Choose whichever of them you think you could be happy at. The workload at Oxford is high, but nothing like as high as the workload in Big Law.

(2) Engaging Oxford Tutor mode: please consider what is wrong with the following sentence: "My aim is to ultimately end up in Big Law". A clue: there are two errors in the sentence, although each is an error of style rather than of grammar. Does this matter? It does. Excellence in written English is a sign of a good lawyer.

(edited 11 months ago)

Reply 4

Miafraser

A degree apprenticeship, earning 25k + first year (rising in increments to 50k in year 4), no tuition fees, gaining practical skills, opportunity to spend a year abroad, experience, references and a network of contacts.

Vs

University degree, 20k per year debt, limited practical experience, potentially juggling study alongside part-time, low-skill employment, competing against 1000s of other graduates for training contracts (which you have already secured).

Reply 5

Stiffy Byng

Original post by Miafraser

A degree apprenticeship, earning 25k + first year (rising in increments to 50k in year 4), no tuition fees, gaining practical skills, opportunity to spend a year abroad, experience, references and a network of contacts.
Vs
University degree, 20k per year debt, limited practical experience, potentially juggling study alongside part-time, low-skill employment, competing against 1000s of other graduates for training contracts (which you have already secured).

Not everybody evaluates life in purely financial terms. The benefits of university go well beyond the financial.

I add that wages aren't given out for free by large law firms, and 25K is not a good salary for someone working in London or another large city where Big Law offices are found. It's bad enough being worked to the bone in Big Law when a person is twenty four. Doing that from the age of eighteen would be even grimmer.

PS: Those who obtain jobs in Big Law tend not to have much difficulty paying off student loans.

Reply 6

Miafraser

Many young adults have financial constraints and lack parental funding to bankroll their education, in which case financial terms are a significant factor in decision-making.

My brother is an example here. Graduated Law in 2022, worked part-time through uni, currently employed in medical-legal sector, earning less than 23k, loans to study Masters part-time, voluteers at CAB, employment opportunities limited as every position is looking for x years of experience in niche areas. 60k of undergraduate study + 12k postgraduate loan.

My sister, on the other hand, started a degree apprenticeship in London last year, living in affordable shared accommodation, she is not worked to the bone, she has time and funds to enjoy a social life, hobbies and holidays, working hours are capped, in the office 3 days a week, uni one day. 6 year contract inclusive of salary, education and personal growth. Zero debt.

The value of University very much depends on personal circumstances.

Reply 7

Miafraser

For those interested in finances:

For A&O, following completion of a 6-year contract, a newly qualified solicitor's salary is 150k, with a 77% trainee retention rate.

https://www.legalcheek.com/firm/ao-shearman/

Oxford graduates, six months after graduating the average annual salary of graduates is £22,915, with 97% of graduates employed or in further education. Of those in employment, 63% were in a role where a degree was essential or beneficial.

https://www.uniadmissions.co.uk/application-guides/oxbridge-vs-non-oxbridge-law-schools/

While not everyone is motivated by money, unless privileged, most of us have financial constraints.

I would be interested to hear of the benefits of full-time university study from a perspective unrelated to finance.

Reply 8

Stiffy Byng

You come across rather like Mr Gradgrind or Mr Bounderby, so I don't think that that you would be very interested in the incalculable benefits of going to university. It is apparent from your tone and your (invalid) comparison that you measure things in crude financial terms, but you can't put a value on youthful enjoyments, friendships, the opportunity to read and think deeply while not having to earn a living, and the cultural enrichment that an academic community can confer.

A graduate won't be a solicitor six months after leaving university. At that stage, quite a few graduates will be doing postgraduate study, and many others will be in entry level jobs. Check in on the same graduates a few years later, when some of them are working at large law firms or in other well paid roles. Some people never earn high salaries. That does not make them failures. Markets undervalue some jobs, and some choose a life which doesn't involve chasing big bucks.

University is not just for the privileged. Many from non privileged backgrounds benefit from university in career terms and in other terms. Student debt is repayable if a graduate obtains a certain level of income, as a form of graduate tax.

(edited 11 months ago)

Reply 9

Miafraser

Given that you profess to have experience in Big Law, you are certainly lacking in interpersonal skills, are rather judgmental, incorrect in your assumptions, and are really quite rude.
You have taken my responses to the OP personally, which also indicates a degree of narcissism or a rather large chip on your shoulder.
My advice is aimed at a teenager who may appreciate a variety of responses, not only those of a privileged adult.
If you are an example of the quality of Oxford University graduates and/or academic staff, I would advise giving the university a wide berth.

Reply 10

Infinity9609

Original post by Stiffy Byng

I recommend that you go to university. University is about much more than what career you follow. It's an opportunity for personal growth in many ways. A law degree from one of the universities you mention will make you a competitive candidate if and when you seek a legal career.
In addition, I would not make a commitment to Big Law at this stage. There are many ways to work in the law, and Big Law is not necessarily the most fulfilling way.
Why do you wish to work in Big Law? The idea and the reality may not be the same. I'm a commercial barrister, so I see Big Law close up, warts and all. It's not always pretty.

I am actually pretty interested in the work at big law . Did work experience at a national law firm and I enjoyed the work which I did. At the interview at A and O we had a taster morning to show the work we would have to do.

On top of enjoyment I cannot hide the fact that salary is something quite important to me, at there is no doubt that big law provides the highest salary opportunities

If I am sure on doing big law would the apprenticeship be the best move as I would secure an amazing NQ job at 18 rather than scrapping for a TC at twenty where it is competitive and uncertain?

Reply 11

Stiffy Byng

Original post by Miafraser

You know nothing of my interpersonal skills. I take nothing here personally. The only chippiness I can see in this thread is emanating from you. I am offering a view to counter yours. The OP can decide which view, if any, to follow.

I don't think that your advice is helpful, because it is fixated on money, and that's a one dimensional way to make life choices. A person who has the ability to obtain places at the universities mentioned above might well benefit in many ways from studying at such a university. The OP's parents favour the university route, and their views, whilst not determinative in any way, are worth noting. They know their child, and are likely to have his or her best interests in mind.

Reply 12

Infinity9609

Original post by Stiffy Byng

You know nothing of my interpersonal skills. I take nothing here personally. The only chippiness I can see in this thread is emanating from you. I am offering a view to counter yours. The OP can decide which view, if any, to follow.
I don't think that your advice is helpful, because it is fixated on money, and that's a one dimensional way to make life choices. A person who has the ability to obtain places at the universities mentioned above might well benefit in many ways from studying at such a university. The OP's parents favour the university route, and their views, whilst not determinative in any way, are worth noting. They know their child, and are likely to have his or her best interests in mind.

I think my parents views have nothing to do with me, but are more to do with their traditional upbringings.

Reply 13

Stiffy Byng

Original post by Infinity9609

I am actually pretty interested in the work at big law . Did work experience at a national law firm and I enjoyed the work which I did. At the interview at A and O we had a taster morning to show the work we would have to do.
On top of enjoyment I cannot hide the fact that salary is something quite important to me, at there is no doubt that big law provides the highest salary opportunities
If I am sure on doing big law would the apprenticeship be the best move as I would secure an amazing NQ job at 18 rather than scrapping for a TC at twenty where it is competitive and uncertain?

You would spend the first few years training,and would not go into a Junior Associate role for some time. The work done by junior lawyers in a large firm can be quite wearing, and it takes a while to get to a position in which you have decision making responsibility, unsupervised client contact, and so on. I am not saying don't do it, but I do suggest that you might take the time to study in depth and engage in personal development (and fun) before committing to the world of work. There is plenty of time to earn a good salary, and a graduate from the universities you mention is usually a competitive candidate for legal and other jobs.

Reply 14

Infinity9609

Original post by Stiffy Byng

You make a good point about having ‘fun’ at university. Does anyone know if there are good social opportunities whilst doing an apprenticeship. If I do the apprenticeship I am going to spend a day a week at university, so I suppose this could present social opportunities?

Reply 15

Miafraser

Original post by Infinity9609

I am actually pretty interested in the work at big law . Did work experience at a national law firm and I enjoyed the work which I did. At the interview at A and O we had a taster morning to show the work we would have to do.
On top of enjoyment I cannot hide the fact that salary is something quite important to me, at there is no doubt that big law provides the highest salary opportunities
If I am sure on doing big law would the apprenticeship be the best move as I would secure an amazing NQ job at 18 rather than scrapping for a TC at twenty where it is competitive and uncertain?

A full-time university law degree would be ideal if you were lacking in direction and needed time to consider your options; you, however, seem to know the direction you are interested in.
Yes, university offers the opportunity to gain independence, grow, develop, socialise, have fun, engage in "youthful enjoyments and friendship," etc. It also has its drawbacks.
An apprenticeship allows for all of the above, and more. Employment alongside studying allows room to gain independence while being mentored by professionals in the industry you want to work in. You'll be part of both an academic and professional community, develop practical skills, knowledge, and hands-on experience, forge friendships, and have fun (with a salary to fund the fun!).
From my experience and the experience of my siblings, university is not for everyone, and not all teenagers are interested in partying 24/7. Not all are financially motivated either, but the ability to finance yourself (should you have parents who are unable to contribute a great deal financially, as are mine, or unwilling to contribute, as are some) at the age of 18 is definitely a bonus.
You have achieved a very desirable role with A&O—one of six, I believe? That is an achievement in itself.
If you have reservations, you could enquire regarding deferring your university offer and retain the option should the apprenticeship not work for you.
Lastly, congratulations on your offers; you have clearly worked hard and will no doubt succeed whatever path you choose.

Reply 16

katana10000

I concur with much of what Stiffy Bing says. Studying at university confers huge benefits, both in terms of personal development and maturity, which will hold you in good stead, not only for your career, but for life in general.

Reply 17

bjones02520

Original post by Infinity9609

Hi I am in a difficult situation, as I have received several competitive offers from universities and apprenticeships.
Uni offers:
Oxford (Ba)
LSE (Llb)
UCL (Llb)
Kings (Llb)
I have also got an apprentice offer from Allen and Overy (magic circle firm)
My aim is to ultimately end up in big law. I believe the best route to do this is through Allen and Overy’s apprenticeship but my parents think that uni will make my job prospects more likely.
For reference my predicted grades were A*A*A
Any advice would be appreciated?

I'm probably not as qualified to answer this as others here but here's my 2 cents;

If I could do it all over again (purely considering career options), I'd have taken a year out, ensured my grades were as high as possible and applied to Weil's and A&O's solicitor apprenticeship. The apprenticeship route doesn't put you in debt and secures you a position with the firm in the long-term while making you an incredibly qualified candidate for any future jobs you might want to pursue.

However, I equally would hate to have done anything other than go to university as the friends and experiences you gain are worth it alone. As much as an apprenticeship would provide the best job solidarity, the university experience is not only great but something I feel should be experienced if you have the opportunity.

To clarify, I do not come from a financially privileged background (quite the opposite), so I took the safest route (at the time) of going to university, reinforced by sponsorship from a top-10 (globally) US firm. It was not the case of "let me blow 20k a year for the 'uni experience'", but rather, picking what was going to give me the most options (in my head) a few years down the line.

On the uni offers;

•

Oxford is VERY tough but you're amongst some of the smartest people on the planet - the course is quite theory-heavy (I believe jurisprudence is done in all three years), which is something to consider.

•

LSE is just as tough but has the added competitive nature of the uni, however it favours from close ties to London firms, and opportunities to study abroad such as the LLB/JD programme with Columbia University.

•

UCL is also great, but the course is split strangely; from what I recall Tort is done in second year, yet Land law in first.

•

In my opinion King's is good, but gets too much hype; its known best for law but primarily because of its location, and thus closer ties with London firms. Academically I feel you would be challenged more elsewhere.

For advice, you need to weigh up how much you care about career prospects and how much you value the university experience. I know people that would kill for a spot even at an A&O open day, let alone a guaranteed spot at their office without paying any tuition. Contrarily, I would not have built such great relationships and developed so much as an individual had I not gone to university.

Ultimately you will end up at a top university, and then likely a top firm, or a top firm from the get-go.

Massive congratulations on all your offers, best of luck!

Reply 18

Stiffy Byng

Original post by Infinity9609

Think of it this way: You would be working hard at the office for most of the week, with one day to study and do the university fun stuff. Your friends from school might well be at university where (if the university and the student are any good) they should be studying diligently, but they will also be meeting a diverse range of new people, playing sports, putting on plays, playing music, and all sorts of other things, including a good deal of partying.

Law firms are not charities: you will earn your pay. Oxford colleges, by contrast, are educational charities. They exist primarily to promote scholarship, and secondarily to promote the nurturing of youth. They also seek to make money from fees and donations, but do so in order to put money back into the charity.

A law firm is a machine designed to create wealth for its owners, the equity partners, and every employee of the firm is required to be a productive part of that machine, contributing towards the goal of maximum billings. There is nothing essentially wrong with this, but the junior staff are very much servants of the machine.

The work required of junior staff in a large law firm is, to be blunt, not always very interesting. Law in practice can be great fun, but it is is nothing like as glamorous as it is appears from films and TV shows. The films and TV shows rarely show the mountains of documents and the long hours of detail-intensive work. Also, in a transactional practice only a few people are doing the deals, and in a disputes practice, even fewer people are doing the arguing in Court. They are the tip of the spear, and the spear has a long handle.

The taster you were shown during a visit may or may not be representative of the daily round. Remember: the law firm was engaged in marketing to you when you visited it. Big law firms are good at marketing.

The working life is long: four decades or more is standard. There is ample time to work hard at a career, make money, incur obligations (family, public duty, business ownership, mortgage, pensions, insurance etc). My advice to people in their teens is: don't rush.

Reply 19

hicweondksc

Original post by Infinity9609

Hi I am in a difficult situation, as I have received several competitive offers from universities and apprenticeships.
Uni offers:
Oxford (Ba)
LSE (Llb)
UCL (Llb)
Kings (Llb)
I have also got an apprentice offer from Allen and Overy (magic circle firm)
My aim is to ultimately end up in big law. I believe the best route to do this is through Allen and Overy’s apprenticeship but my parents think that uni will make my job prospects more likely.
For reference my predicted grades were A*A*A
Any advice would be appreciated?

Oxford is probably your best route to get to big law. Oxbridge graduates dominate the legal industry if you look into the statistics.