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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    you are aware that christian groups have done exactly the same in the past?
    How does that excuse it?
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    No group representative of the British Muslims has condoned these activities.
    I'm talking about the ethics of Islam itself being against this freedom.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Which is a consequence and concern of such actions. There will always be criminal elements to any demographic group, but it will always be condemned most harshly by those who it attempts to represent. This is consistently not happening within muslim communities, both in Britain and parts of Europe, to their detriment of how these cultures are perceived by the majority.
    hm i'm not sure i agree with this, i don't see the catholic church stating explicitly, or stressing publically that they're against paedophilia.

    edit: however, on thought, i suppose if they were under criticism, the catholic church could show that they're not affiliated with priests who abuse children. whereas I think in this case it would be quite hard for muslims to say it wasn't in their muslim ideology to oppress that freedom.
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    There is more than one 'law' to be obeyed, and who is to say which is better?
    We have one legal system based on English law.

    Anyway, British society does not always respect the letter of the law. Look at the '60s, or at the defiance of the pro-hunt movement today. It's nowhere near that simple. If no-one ever challenged the law, nothing would ever change.
    Civil disobediance is an interesting and often valid tool, but civil disobediance is reflective of a large civil disagreement with disputed, unpopular or outdated law. These acts of vandalism are no such case.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    hm i'm not sure i agree with this, i don't see the catholic church stating explicitly, or stressing publically that they're against paedophilia.

    edit: however, on thought, i suppose if they were under criticism, the catholic church could show that they're not affiliated with priests who abuse children. whereas I think in this case it would be quite hard for muslims to say it wasn't in their muslim ideology to oppress that freedom.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1885380.stm

    If it is not as vocal as we may wish, I have never seen it attempted to be condoned, neither do I accept that the Catholic Church have any less responsibility to denounce it.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I fail to see how vandalising a billboard which is sexually exploitive is 'imposing islamic ethics' on a culture that is more progressive(!) is annoying.
    well we tend to value freedom highly, including freedom to do things which we wouldn't particularly want to do ourselves. removing other people's freedoms because you simply don't like what they're doing tends to be frowned upon.
    Many of those from the so-called 'progressive culture' and British nationality are also offended by public displays of sexual exploitation.
    okay, but as a society we tend not to impost our own tastes by defacing other's property. and my point is, it's in their religious ideology to force 'modesty,' which is different from your average man on the street not liking the billboard.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    My concern is with specific communities,

    "Those that are willingly part of Muslims against Advertising and its sympathisers, yes, are knowingly breaking the law. As with any criminal, they should be prosecuted and owe a debt to society. Im more concerned about the general justification and disregard for the law and the property of others by both these communities as a whole and a forum for British Muslims."

    If communities such as these are willing to take such action, which is condoned by a forum for British Muslims, what sort of message does that give to wider British society? Id also hasten to guess that similar communities in Britain would be willing to commit such action, unless those in Birmingham are somehow the hardline minority?
    Your concern is with a few indiviudals who do not represent the Muslim community, not with the Muslim community in the UK as a whole. Muslims who objects to the advertising, are well within their rights to do so, after all they have every right to free speech, as does anyone else living in the UK. If they are caught, as I'm sure some have been, hence the surfacing of this story, I think I can safely say that every single one has been treated as is appropriate in the eyes of the law, and therefore, their debt re-paid to society, as is any other criminals. Your insinuation that they are not being dealt with is wrong. As for your "concern" over the "disregard for the law and the property of others", well thats fine. But then you must also voice similar "concerns" for every other criminal inhabiting the UK, as you don't need me to repeatedly tell you that crime is not limited to Muslims. At no point has any leading Muslim authority, that is accepted by all British Muslims condoned the acts carried out by these individuals. Therefore, the Muslim communities as whole are not representative of these people, and you cannot make assumptions that they represent the same view.

    In reference to the forum. Where exactly does the article condone the activities being carried out? As far as I can see, all it is doing is reporting the story. The message as far as I can see, being given to other British Muslims, is simply information on what some British Muslims are doing. This does not mean to say every Muslim who read it will agree with it. Just as you have your reservations about The Guardian newspaper, the same applies here. Muslims have been emigrating to the UK from different part of the world since the 1970's, they have been exposed to the British Media since then, if the entire Muslim community was going to organsise some form of backlash about nudity in the media or whatnot, I'm sure it would have been done so a lot sooner than now. These activities, are being carried out by a select minority of hardline individuals.

    (Original post by vienna95)
    Not me. I welcome the right to free speech for all and for all to respect the common law of the land. Free speech is perfectly welcome, vandalism isnt.

    You state that "free speech ends where others are offended", do you agree with that still, in light of the offense that many take to having public property defaced? and in light of the offense i take to your remarks?

    This is vandalism. The British Association of Muslims believe that free speech that offends others should end. That is OF GRAVE concern for ALL in BRITISH society. Whatsmore you support this idea, pass it off as being consistent with British society(alarming in itself) and then condone the vandalism as merely being the rights of those Muslims to free speech despite offending English law and the majority of British society that abides by it.

    The British Association of Muslims along with these Muslim communities in Birmingham tear down and vandalise private property declaring that noone has the right to free speech if it offends them and you justify it as being their right to free speech.
    If you welcome the right to free speech then you should accept the views of the Muslims Against Advertising (MAA). Aside from those carrying out the crime, I'd be interested to see evidence of a high prevalance of crime amongst the Muslim community in proportion to their numbers of the entire population.

    The Muslim Association has made clear that individuals have the right to free speech. It has not at any point cndoned the activities of the MAA. I think the idea of free speech being acceptable as long as no one is offended is fairly standard of British society. I know for certain that every single person I have ever met believes this sentiment, and I have met a lot of different people. Your belief that free speech should be allowed regardless of who and what it offends, it consistant with the rise of racism, where people fail to acknowledge another persons/groups beliefs and/or culture or heritiage. At no point have I condoned the Vandalism, in fact if you take the time to read my earlier posts, I'm sure you'll find I have actually disagreed with it.

    The Muslim Association of Britain along with these Muslim communities in Birmingham does not tear down and vandalise private property. A few individuals, who are part of MAA do.
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)

    As for; "because freedom of speech should end when you offend others.", I fully agree.
    I don't.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    They are British Muslims themselves, so I think it would fair to say that they held a cross sectional view at British Muslim opinion. Unless every British Muslim must have the same homogenous action and thought for you to entertain such an idea?
    I have been brought up a Catholic. Is it fair to say that my views are representative of all Catholics in the UK? No, it is not. By your own agreement, every British Muslim does not have the same homogenous action and thought, therefore, your repeated insinuation that all British Muslims agree with, or are part of this campaign is wrong.


    (Original post by vienna95)
    They were quick enough to give a rather enlightening view on the boundaries of free speech, without any mention of how curbing this free speech would be both against the principles of free speech in British society and in conflict with English law.
    They have not condoned it. That is all I am concerned about. As long as no authority which represents Muslims in their entireity condones this, your argument has no grounding.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    How does that excuse it?
    It does not, but your attempts to show that only some British Muslims have carried out this sort of crime, is wrong.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    I have never seen it attempted to be condoned.
    Exactly. And applying the same to this situation, you have not seen the actions of these individuals condoned by any relevant Muslim authority.
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    Frankly, I don't care!
    Ooohh, you sound just like that man from "Gone with the Wind"
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    It does not, but your attempts to show that only some British Muslims have carried out this sort of crime
    Again, and almost certainly intentionally, widely missing the point being made.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I don't.
    Indeed, and I doubt broader British society would either.
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    Exactly. And applying the same to this situation, you have not seen the actions of these individuals condoned by any relevant Muslim authority.
    Im afraid so, the British Muslim Association clearly condoned the action by not rejecting these actions but instead justifying them as a consequence of free speech offending Muslims.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Indeed, and I doubt broader British society would either.
    Rubbish! one only has to look at recent censorship furores on the BBC to see how deeply divided our nation is about how far freedom of speech should go. For instance a comedy programme featuring a cartoon pope on a pogo-stick was recently banned by the BBC (before airing) after a massive amount of complaints made by the british public (who hadn't even seen it!).
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    (Original post by ChemistBoy)
    Rubbish! one only has to look at recent censorship furores on the BBC to see how deeply divided our nation is about how far freedom of speech should go. For instance a comedy programme featuring a cartoon pope on a pogo-stick was recently banned by the BBC (before airing) after a massive amount of complaints made by the british public (who hadn't even seen it!).
    On the BBC, its funded by the taxpayer.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Indeed, and I doubt broader British society would either.
    Quite. If I wanted to live in a fascist state I would.
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    I have been brought up a Catholic. Is it fair to say that my views are representative of all Catholics in the UK? No, it is not. By your own agreement, every British Muslim does not have the same homogenous action and thought, therefore, your repeated insinuation that all British Muslims agree with, or are part of this campaign is wrong.
    They have not condoned it. That is all I am concerned about. As long as no authority which represents Muslims in their entireity condones this, your argument has no grounding.
    Mad Caddie, please make an effort to address the arguments being made, instead of smearing mine off.
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    (Original post by ChemistBoy)
    Rubbish! one only has to look at recent censorship furores on the BBC to see how deeply divided our nation is about how far freedom of speech should go. For instance a comedy programme featuring a cartoon pope on a pogo-stick was recently banned by the BBC (before airing) after a massive amount of complaints made by the british public (who hadn't even seen it!).
    Massive amount? How many exactly? 250 give or take?
 
 
 
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