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    (Original post by vienna95)
    So I have no right to free speech even if my words and opinions may offend others?
    Obviously not!
    -I don't believe Michael Howard will make a good PM.
    Fair enough, a select few might take offense, but it is unintentional
    -I don't believe Michael Howard will make a good PM because he is a Jew.
    Not fair enough, even though only a minority will take offense, it is unnecessary, and deliberate.
    Under totally 'free speech' you should be able to say both.
    But we don't.
    Free speech is bounded by the limits of politeness.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    He should be clearer, there are so many straw men flying around its difficult to find the decent arguments buried in such a haystack.
    !?!
    must be a french saying...
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    Under totally 'free speech' you should be able to say both.
    But we don't.
    Free speech is bounded by the limits of politeness.
    Its not bounded at all. I am free to make such a comment and you are free to consider me a racist. What on earth has politeness to do with it?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    He should be clearer, there are so many straw men flying around its difficult to find the decent arguments buried in such a haystack.

    Id also be interested to know which personal comments meant lmichaelroberts was afforded 11 warning points?
    perhaps it was some pruning of the out and out racist comments?

    I'd be interested to know who's been pos repping him
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    perhaps it was some pruning of the out and out racist comments?
    Which comments? and is that where free speech ends?

    I'd be interested to know who's been pos repping him
    certainly not myself, I dont find his arguments have any credibility worth responding to. Its a shame others are willing to pursue that argument despite there being others on the table.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Its not bounded at all. I am free to make such a comment and you are free to consider me a racist. What on earth has politeness to do with it?
    So why when i make a nazi reference to you do you go to the admin?
    because its not polite.
    If you really believed in utterly free speech you wouldn't do that
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    So why when i make a nazi reference to you do you go to the admin?
    because its not polite.
    No, its not polite. Im going to be offended by it but it doesnt mean I should stop you saying what you think in the context of the argument. any removal of such comments are based on the fact they are unsubstantiated personal remarks that dont help debate.

    If you really believed in utterly free speech you wouldn't do that
    do what? be offended by it?

    the argument is that free speech should not end if one is offended, not that noone should be offended so that free speech may persist.
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    The original point of this thread was that Muslims were trying to take over the country. I have yet to see any evidence for this.
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    The original point of this thread was that Muslims were trying to take over the country. I have yet to see any evidence for this.
    The argument quickly moved past that. Id be grateful if you could give me your opinions on the following points/questions.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...&postcount=128
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    Whenever I enter the Debate and Discussion section I always find myself being amused by the nonsense spoken by people like Vienna who believe they grace us with their intelligently written replies. However not realising that the basic principles of what they spout could be stated down the road in my local pub by a cab driver who supports the BNP.
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    In response to the link:

    (Original post by vienna95)
    I have a problem with people not living by British law. Am I a xenophobic weirdo?
    Probably not. My post was that the 'xenophobic weirdos' would be those actually hostile to immigrants for no other reason that the fact that they are immigrants. Your belief that they should abide by our laws is not something I have an issue with; rather, I don't understand those who view Muslim and British law as incompatible opposites.

    (Original post by vienna96)
    What parts of Muslim law do you believe hold up to the rights we afford women in this country?
    My belief is that a true 'Muslim law', based on Muslim values and not isolated bits of Scripture taken out of context, would not be discriminatory against women, as some Muslim states are.


    (Original post by vienna95)
    Would you accept the introduction of Islamic Sharia law courts?
    For Muslims, yes, with the caveat (as above) that they are based or the core values of Al-Qur'an, not on isolated bits of text. After all, a country with the motto 'In God we Trust' could, in theory, use isolated bits of the Bible as excuses for criminalising, for example, homosexuals (Leviticus 18:22). This is just the same as finding little bits of Al-Qur'an that appear, when removed from their context, to justify the oppression of women or holy wars.

    Oh, and provided that it does not actually breach human rights, as the oppression of women and Jizyah clearly do.


    Alexdel, vienna95 has just as much right to express her opinions as you do. If you think it's all BS, then you should have no problem in thoroughly debunking her.
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    For Muslims, yes,
    So depending on your religion, legal cases could be heard in two seperate courts of law?
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    Whenever I enter the Debate and Discussion section I always find myself being amused by the nonsense spoken by people like Vienna who believe they grace us with their intelligently written replies. However not realising that the basic principles of what they spout could be stated down the road in my local pub by a cab driver who supports the BNP.
    Im glad I could be of entertainment, although slightly disappointed this didnt inspire you to make a credible contribution on the thread.
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    (Original post by ramroff)
    Personally myself I don't mind Muslims a friend of a friend of mine is a Muslim and whenever he visits I provide him with a compass which he uses to find the direction which to pray towards so I'm obviously not Muslimophobic
    Hahaha! :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    No, its not polite. Im going to be offended by it but it doesnt mean I should stop you saying what you think in the context of the argument. any removal of such comments are based on the fact they are unsubstantiated personal remarks that dont help debate.


    do what? be offended by it?

    the argument is that free speech should not end if one is offended, not that noone should be offended so that free speech may persist.
    I draw comparisons between your right wing stance, and the facism of the nazis. I don't have to substantiate it.
    YOU then ask for it to be removed
    That is censorship based on the fact it is offensive.

    I really can't understand your stance in this mini-debate. I'm talking basic common sense here. The line I'm talking about is the one you usually follow youself. Preach what you follow, not what you think.
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    Whenever I enter the Debate and Discussion section I always find myself being amused by the nonsense spoken by people like Vienna who believe they grace us with their intelligently written replies. However not realising that the basic principles of what they spout could be stated down the road in my local pub by a cab driver who supports the BNP.
    We bow down to your massive intelligence and pay you hommage. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    I draw comparisons between your right wing stance, and the facism of the nazis. I don't have to substantiate it.
    YOU then ask for it to be removed
    That is censorship based on the fact it is offensive.
    I may have been offended by such comparisons but unless they were personal insults, which on this particular forum are not welcome, there is no reason for them to be removed. Personal insults do not facilitate debate.

    I really can't understand your stance in this mini-debate. I'm talking basic common sense here. The line I'm talking about is the one you usually follow youself. Preach what you follow, not what you think.
    I disagree with personal insults on a debate thread. You can say what you want but people have an equal right to react to that. The suggestion that all free speech ends as soon as it offends is plain nonsense. That is not to say social discourse is a free for all, as a certain tolerance is required such that free speech is allowed without compromising on the concept of discussion.

    Without giving too much credit to lmichaelroberts, he is offended by oppressive dress code, does he have the right to vandalise that as such? That is the justification given by the MAB, yet I doubt they would take such action toward muslim women quite so lightly, as quite rightly they have a private right to express themselves as they so wish.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    So I have no right to free speech if my words and opinions may offend others?
    The Muslims are using their right to free speech to complain against the nudity in the media. You yourself have commented in this thread that this subject is a cause for concern, or someone has anyway, and you/they are entitled to that.

    Who exactly are the Muslims offending, aside from the vandalism, by expressing their view?
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    I for one reported 5 of his posts........
    Why am I not surprised?
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    I don't know, why aren't you?
    Because you have a proven propensity for running off to teacher with a shiny red apple.
 
 
 
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