Thousands of prisoners to be released in September
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crg5vp0296eo.amp
The system is overwhelmed apparently.
The system is overwhelmed apparently.
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How do people feel about this?
Original post by iL1L
How do people feel about this?
I don't think anyone is actually going to like this but needs must given the lack of prison spaces. The previous Tory administration did not increase prison capacity. On one of the recent Spectator podcasts it was said that this might even be one of the reasons behind Sunak's early election call - to avoid either prison riots up and down the country over the summer or mass release of prisoners early under his government.
Original post by Smack
I don't think anyone is actually going to like this but needs must given the lack of prison spaces. The previous Tory administration did not increase prison capacity. On one of the recent Spectator podcasts it was said that this might even be one of the reasons behind Sunak's early election call - to avoid either prison riots up and down the country over the summer or mass release of prisoners early under his government.
The former Justice Minister Alex Chalk said on the Today Programme that he'd approved early release as it was the only solution but Sunak had overruled him on the basis it could cost votes. So they've essential let someone else deal with the problem they created.
It highlights the entirely predictable problems a government creates when it neglects infrastructure investment for years.
It's not great, but I don't know what else they are expected to do if the space doesn't physically exist - new prisons are already under construction so it's not like nothing is being done about, it these projects take time. No surprise to see certain Tories mouthing off as if it wasn't their mess to clean up
About the only other thing you can do is basically reduce living conditions, keeping people in other places like barges, military bases, condemned buildings etc but considering we're mostly talking about low lover offenders you're almost certainly turning a small problem into a bigger one later.
About the only other thing you can do is basically reduce living conditions, keeping people in other places like barges, military bases, condemned buildings etc but considering we're mostly talking about low lover offenders you're almost certainly turning a small problem into a bigger one later.
I’m all for this, hopefully more effort is spent on probation services instead where people are actually helped to change their ways and fix themselves.
This is a bit of a joke. Just put a extra bed per cell and double them up.
Original post by Guru Jason
This is a bit of a joke. Just put a extra bed per cell and double them up.
That's already happened, the cells that have the space to accommodate multiple prisoners already do so.
The problem is more than just overcrowding, it's that the *overcrowding* has reached its maximum level.
Ultimately if we want to imprison more people, we have to build the prisons to do that - and building and running a larger prison estate is expensive.
(edited 2 months ago)
If non-violent criminals are coming out, to make space for violent ones going in, I have no problem with it whatsoever.
Original post by Admit-One
If non-violent criminals are coming out, to make space for violent ones going in, I have no problem with it whatsoever.
This is 40% of the time served instead of the current 50%. Sentencing in England and Justice system guidelines are already relatively low when it comes to sentencing for offences. If anything, it may result in increased crime now as people are aware repercussions will not be as severe.
Original post by AMac86
That's already happened, the cells that have the space to accommodate multiple prisoners already do so.
The problem is more than just overcrowding, it's that the *overcrowding* has reached its maximum level.
Ultimately if we want to imprison more people, we have to build the prisons to do that - and building and running a larger prison state is expensive.
The problem is more than just overcrowding, it's that the *overcrowding* has reached its maximum level.
Ultimately if we want to imprison more people, we have to build the prisons to do that - and building and running a larger prison state is expensive.
This pretty much
You can cram as many beds in as you like it doesn't change the fact that the facility is dangerously overcrowded so it becomes exponentially harder to keep it secure and acceptably safe for prisoners, staff and visitors alike.
Original post by conspiringcons
This is 40% of the time served instead of the current 50%. Sentencing in England and Justice system guidelines are already relatively low when it comes to sentencing for offences. If anything, it may result in increased crime now as people are aware repercussions will not be as severe.
Well you could argue the same if prisons are full to capacity and the system gets backed up. At least this way there is some kind of prioritisation going on.
By and large I don't think prison has ever proven to be much of a deterrant anyway.
Original post by conspiringcons
This is 40% of the time served instead of the current 50%. Sentencing in England and Justice system guidelines are already relatively low when it comes to sentencing for offences. If anything, it may result in increased crime now as people are aware repercussions will not be as severe.
I doubt it tbh. The sort of people who are deterred by the possibility of prison will stay deterred, the ones that already didn't care still won't care. Given it can easily take a year or 2 to actually get to sentencing you'd be a bit daft to say 'Well if I rob this shop now I'll get 10% off my prison sentence!' when the situation will almost certainly have changed by the time you're sentenced.
Original post by AMac86
That's already happened, the cells that have the space to accommodate multiple prisoners already do so.
The problem is more than just overcrowding, it's that the *overcrowding* has reached its maximum level.
Ultimately if we want to imprison more people, we have to build the prisons to do that - and building and running a larger prison estate is expensive.
The problem is more than just overcrowding, it's that the *overcrowding* has reached its maximum level.
Ultimately if we want to imprison more people, we have to build the prisons to do that - and building and running a larger prison estate is expensive.
I doubt that we are at capacity for stacking prisoners in cells. I suspect the government thinks they are at capacity what they would consider humane conditions but they are prisoners. I say stack them in cells tight like cattle.
Prisoners should not be afforded luxury in prison.
Another thing we could do is bring back capital punishment for those serving life sentences.
According to what I just read (granted, the data is old but considering how full we are the number is likely to be the same or higher), 10% of all UK prisoners are serving indefinite sentences or life sentences.
With the uk having 95k prisoners as of 2023, a sure fire way to open 9.5k new places in prisoners would be to permanently remove those whom will never be allowed back into society.
According to what I just read (granted, the data is old but considering how full we are the number is likely to be the same or higher), 10% of all UK prisoners are serving indefinite sentences or life sentences.
With the uk having 95k prisoners as of 2023, a sure fire way to open 9.5k new places in prisoners would be to permanently remove those whom will never be allowed back into society.
Original post by Guru Jason
I doubt that we are at capacity for stacking prisoners in cells. I suspect the government thinks they are at capacity what they would consider humane conditions but they are prisoners. I say stack them in cells tight like cattle.
Prisoners should not be afforded luxury in prison.
Prisoners should not be afforded luxury in prison.
Dehumanising prisoners is not the smartest approach if you want to reintegrate them into society and reduce reoffending.
It is also expensive. I’d wish you to foot the £46,000/year per prisoner and £600,000 cost for each new prison cell, then go for it but not all of us like high taxes.
Original post by Guru Jason
I doubt that we are at capacity for stacking prisoners in cells. I suspect the government thinks they are at capacity what they would consider humane conditions but they are prisoners. I say stack them in cells tight like cattle.
Prisoners should not be afforded luxury in prison.
Prisoners should not be afforded luxury in prison.
Yes, this is your predictable answer, and also why you would never be put in charge of peoples living conditions.
Original post by Gazpacho.
Dehumanising prisoners is not the smartest approach if you want to reintegrate them into society and reduce reoffending.
It is also expensive. I’d wish you to foot the £46,000/year per prisoner and £600,000 cost for each new prison cell, then go for it but not all of us like high taxes.
It is also expensive. I’d wish you to foot the £46,000/year per prisoner and £600,000 cost for each new prison cell, then go for it but not all of us like high taxes.
Then the issue is spending too much on prisoners. I don't know why they cost that much but if I had said information I bet I could find multiple ways if reducing it.
How much would bread and water cost per prisoner per year.
The quickest of googles would show that UK prisons are allocated £2.70 per prisoner for daily prison meals, thats about £1,000 - it's a very small proportion of the overall cost and a quick google of images of typical UK prison food shows its pretty grim as it is.
Prisons are expensive not because of food, but because they involve lots of physical infrastructure and lots of staff. Cells are pretty small as it is, not luxurious at all, and its not just about cell space, a prisons capacity is also limited by it's surrounding infrastructure which is roughly set up for its designed capacity.
Two further points:
Firstly, as Gazpacho highlights, de-humanizing prisoners and/or treating them with deliberate brutality pretty much removes any rehabilitative effect - re-offending rates are likely to rise and crimes will increase. Plenty of data from the UK and elsewhere showing that a pure punishment approach to imprisonment trends toward this.
Secondly - If you found yourself in prison, would you personally be OK with being stacked 4 to a cell, barely any space to move, sleeping on a concrete floor, subject to daily violence due to overcrowding, eating only bread and water, with no opportunities to learn new skills to rebuild your life after release?
At this point you might reply with "I would never be sent to prison", which is easy to say but consider just as a starter:
All ways in which almost any us *could* find ourselves in a prison cell, and if we were I do not think any of us would want to be in the conditions you've proposed above in your posts.
Prisons are expensive not because of food, but because they involve lots of physical infrastructure and lots of staff. Cells are pretty small as it is, not luxurious at all, and its not just about cell space, a prisons capacity is also limited by it's surrounding infrastructure which is roughly set up for its designed capacity.
Two further points:
Firstly, as Gazpacho highlights, de-humanizing prisoners and/or treating them with deliberate brutality pretty much removes any rehabilitative effect - re-offending rates are likely to rise and crimes will increase. Plenty of data from the UK and elsewhere showing that a pure punishment approach to imprisonment trends toward this.
Secondly - If you found yourself in prison, would you personally be OK with being stacked 4 to a cell, barely any space to move, sleeping on a concrete floor, subject to daily violence due to overcrowding, eating only bread and water, with no opportunities to learn new skills to rebuild your life after release?
At this point you might reply with "I would never be sent to prison", which is easy to say but consider just as a starter:
•
A case of mistaken identity results in you being charged with a serious offense, you are ultimately found innocent when the trial collapses but in the meanwhile bail is denied and with the trial date 2 years away that means 2 years in prison;
•
You bump into someone in a busy street, they are angry with and move towards you raising their fist, in fear for your safety you push them backwards, they trip and suffer life changing head injuries. Witnesses say they only say your push - you are sentenced to 6 years in prison for GBH.
•
You are driving to work, and make a left turn into a side road without checking your blind spot. You hit a person on a bicycle causing fatal inquiries and are convicted and sentenced to 4 years for causing death by dangerous driving.
All ways in which almost any us *could* find ourselves in a prison cell, and if we were I do not think any of us would want to be in the conditions you've proposed above in your posts.
Original post by AMac86
The quickest of googles would show that UK prisons are allocated £2.70 per prisoner for daily prison meals, thats about £1,000 - it's a very small proportion of the overall cost and a quick google of images of typical UK prison food shows its pretty grim as it is.
Prisons are expensive not because of food, but because they involve lots of physical infrastructure and lots of staff. Cells are pretty small as it is, not luxurious at all, and its not just about cell space, a prisons capacity is also limited by it's surrounding infrastructure which is roughly set up for its designed capacity.
Two further points:
Firstly, as Gazpacho highlights, de-humanizing prisoners and/or treating them with deliberate brutality pretty much removes any rehabilitative effect - re-offending rates are likely to rise and crimes will increase. Plenty of data from the UK and elsewhere showing that a pure punishment approach to imprisonment trends toward this.
Secondly - If you found yourself in prison, would you personally be OK with being stacked 4 to a cell, barely any space to move, sleeping on a concrete floor, subject to daily violence due to overcrowding, eating only bread and water, with no opportunities to learn new skills to rebuild your life after release?
At this point you might reply with "I would never be sent to prison", which is easy to say but consider just as a starter:
All ways in which almost any us *could* find ourselves in a prison cell, and if we were I do not think any of us would want to be in the conditions you've proposed above in your posts.
Prisons are expensive not because of food, but because they involve lots of physical infrastructure and lots of staff. Cells are pretty small as it is, not luxurious at all, and its not just about cell space, a prisons capacity is also limited by it's surrounding infrastructure which is roughly set up for its designed capacity.
Two further points:
Firstly, as Gazpacho highlights, de-humanizing prisoners and/or treating them with deliberate brutality pretty much removes any rehabilitative effect - re-offending rates are likely to rise and crimes will increase. Plenty of data from the UK and elsewhere showing that a pure punishment approach to imprisonment trends toward this.
Secondly - If you found yourself in prison, would you personally be OK with being stacked 4 to a cell, barely any space to move, sleeping on a concrete floor, subject to daily violence due to overcrowding, eating only bread and water, with no opportunities to learn new skills to rebuild your life after release?
At this point you might reply with "I would never be sent to prison", which is easy to say but consider just as a starter:
•
A case of mistaken identity results in you being charged with a serious offense, you are ultimately found innocent when the trial collapses but in the meanwhile bail is denied and with the trial date 2 years away that means 2 years in prison;
•
You bump into someone in a busy street, they are angry with and move towards you raising their fist, in fear for your safety you push them backwards, they trip and suffer life changing head injuries. Witnesses say they only say your push - you are sentenced to 6 years in prison for GBH.
•
You are driving to work, and make a left turn into a side road without checking your blind spot. You hit a person on a bicycle causing fatal inquiries and are convicted and sentenced to 4 years for causing death by dangerous driving.
All ways in which almost any us *could* find ourselves in a prison cell, and if we were I do not think any of us would want to be in the conditions you've proposed above in your posts.
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