Medicine - the pinnacle of academia?
I consider myself as being relatively bright, having studied a BSc, MSc, and a PhD in the medical sciences, all at Russell Group universities. I did my MSc at a G5 university.
Despite these achievements, l feel that students who get the top grades to get into Medicine must be as smart as heck, and they must possess intellect that even l don't have.
Do medical students attribute their extremely high intellect to good schooling from a young age, be it at school or at home? Can they absorb a lot of information quickly and understand it readily?
If it were possible to increase one's intellect, what suggestions would medical students suggest, aside from hard work? How exactly do students with high intellect approach problem solving and study?
I believe there are students with outstanding grades out there who were just taught brilliantly at a good school, and thus were well-drilled to succeed. Then there are the students who didn't go to a particularly good school, yet they excelled despite the challenges of being at a poor school. These students are of particular interest to me, as they must have either excellent genetics, or they were brought up well at home by their parents, who helped develop their curiosity and love for learning and problem solving.
Despite these achievements, l feel that students who get the top grades to get into Medicine must be as smart as heck, and they must possess intellect that even l don't have.
Do medical students attribute their extremely high intellect to good schooling from a young age, be it at school or at home? Can they absorb a lot of information quickly and understand it readily?
If it were possible to increase one's intellect, what suggestions would medical students suggest, aside from hard work? How exactly do students with high intellect approach problem solving and study?
I believe there are students with outstanding grades out there who were just taught brilliantly at a good school, and thus were well-drilled to succeed. Then there are the students who didn't go to a particularly good school, yet they excelled despite the challenges of being at a poor school. These students are of particular interest to me, as they must have either excellent genetics, or they were brought up well at home by their parents, who helped develop their curiosity and love for learning and problem solving.
(edited 2 months ago)
I believe you are under a misconception that all medical students are extremely intelligent and that things come naturally to them. I am a graduate studying medicine as my second degree and from my experiences and while there are student who are naturally bright and pick up things relatively quickly, the majority of medical students struggle, despite being top grade student while at school. The majority of medical students struggle to keep up with work, spend hours and hours and hours in the library studying literally, stuDYING, giving up on sleep, food and their life. I have seen students which such unhealthy study habits that it has made me wonder, is medicine even worth it if it requires you to sacrifice your entire existence, your mental health, your sleep, your relationships. The list goes on.
I actually received an unconditional offer to medicine as an A level student, my grades were AAB. Exactly not an all As/A*s student but I did get into medical school. I came from a widening participation background, none of my parents attended university, my school was underperforming, students in my sixth form were failing their science A levels and there was me who desperately wanted to pursue medicine. Despite getting in the first time round, I did not feel I was in the correct mental space to head off to medical school, move away from home at 18. I was struggling with severe anxiety and bouts of panic attacks which led me to withdraw from medical school 2 days before starting my course. Regret consumed me. I instead went to a local university and studied my back-up which was pharmacy. Those were 4 long years of my life, each day I regret my decision. I even felt dumb during pharmacy, not smart enough, stupid, lacked confidence. Funnily enough, I ended up performing top of my cohort 2 consecutive years at pharmacy school, attained a first class honours degree and then went onto get into medical school.
I am giving my background story to remind you that you don't need to have a conventional route into medical school, nor do you need to be the smartest. Moreover, I have seen the smartest students coming straight out of A level struggling with medical school so it isn't true that it all comes naturally or is any easier for them either. It is more so the personality trait of 90% of medical students that they must appear intelligent, must come across as being on A game at ALL times which isn't feasible. We all fail at some point in our lives. We all will fail. Without failure, there cannot be success.
Today, I realise how I made the best decision to pursue medicine as an ADULT with experience. As someone, who was ready to enter medical school, mentally and physically. I realised that so many of my medical student peers are either pursuing medicine for the sake of their parents , which I find rather stupid or the prestige of being called a medical student without the PASSION. The passion that I know I possess because I yearned to be here. I must thank pharmacy school for giving me the knowledge, experience and confidence to now be thriving in medical school with ease. I cannot lie and say I have not had late nights in the library studying, but it was never and never will be at the expense of my health. I will not and have not ever drowned myself in caffeine to study like a machine. What I am trying to say is what is getting me through medical school is passion and genuine interest in what I am learning, my desire to speak to my patients and genuinely show them my concern, my love for anatomy.
I hope this story helps you realise that yes, YOU TOO can pursue medicine and excel. Being a top medical student or even a medical student does NOT mean anything. It does not mean you WILL be the best doctor, It should not ever be something we feel is the pinnacle of success because in my opinion, someone who has sacrificed their entire identity, their health, their life just to be called a medical student has certainly failed at life.
I actually received an unconditional offer to medicine as an A level student, my grades were AAB. Exactly not an all As/A*s student but I did get into medical school. I came from a widening participation background, none of my parents attended university, my school was underperforming, students in my sixth form were failing their science A levels and there was me who desperately wanted to pursue medicine. Despite getting in the first time round, I did not feel I was in the correct mental space to head off to medical school, move away from home at 18. I was struggling with severe anxiety and bouts of panic attacks which led me to withdraw from medical school 2 days before starting my course. Regret consumed me. I instead went to a local university and studied my back-up which was pharmacy. Those were 4 long years of my life, each day I regret my decision. I even felt dumb during pharmacy, not smart enough, stupid, lacked confidence. Funnily enough, I ended up performing top of my cohort 2 consecutive years at pharmacy school, attained a first class honours degree and then went onto get into medical school.
I am giving my background story to remind you that you don't need to have a conventional route into medical school, nor do you need to be the smartest. Moreover, I have seen the smartest students coming straight out of A level struggling with medical school so it isn't true that it all comes naturally or is any easier for them either. It is more so the personality trait of 90% of medical students that they must appear intelligent, must come across as being on A game at ALL times which isn't feasible. We all fail at some point in our lives. We all will fail. Without failure, there cannot be success.
Today, I realise how I made the best decision to pursue medicine as an ADULT with experience. As someone, who was ready to enter medical school, mentally and physically. I realised that so many of my medical student peers are either pursuing medicine for the sake of their parents , which I find rather stupid or the prestige of being called a medical student without the PASSION. The passion that I know I possess because I yearned to be here. I must thank pharmacy school for giving me the knowledge, experience and confidence to now be thriving in medical school with ease. I cannot lie and say I have not had late nights in the library studying, but it was never and never will be at the expense of my health. I will not and have not ever drowned myself in caffeine to study like a machine. What I am trying to say is what is getting me through medical school is passion and genuine interest in what I am learning, my desire to speak to my patients and genuinely show them my concern, my love for anatomy.
I hope this story helps you realise that yes, YOU TOO can pursue medicine and excel. Being a top medical student or even a medical student does NOT mean anything. It does not mean you WILL be the best doctor, It should not ever be something we feel is the pinnacle of success because in my opinion, someone who has sacrificed their entire identity, their health, their life just to be called a medical student has certainly failed at life.
I don't care what anyone says - l think a student who can get at least AAA in Biology, Chemistry and Physics / Maths and a good UCAT / BMAT score is smart as heck. As for medical school, they can only assess you on material covered in lectures / tutorials in the main. I know of one medical student from Imperial College who said he never even made any extra notes, and he only revised the lecture / tutorial material. He is now a qualified doctor.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by Physician
I consider myself as being relatively bright, having studied a BSc, MSc, and a PhD in the medical sciences, all at Russell Group universities. I did my MSc at a G5 university.
Despite these achievements, l feel that students who get the top grades to get into Medicine must be as smart as heck, and they must possess intellect that even l don't have.
Do medical students attribute their extremely high intellect to good schooling from a young age, be it at school or at home? Can they absorb a lot of information quickly and understand it readily?
If it were possible to increase one's intellect, what suggestions would medical students suggest, aside from hard work? How exactly do students with high intellect approach problem solving and study?
I believe there are students with outstanding grades out there who were just taught brilliantly at a good school, and thus were well-drilled to succeed. Then there are the students who didn't go to a particularly good school, yet they excelled despite the challenges of being at a poor school. These students are of particular interest to me, as they must have either excellent genetics, or they were brought up well at home by their parents, who helped develop their curiosity and love for learning and problem solving.
Despite these achievements, l feel that students who get the top grades to get into Medicine must be as smart as heck, and they must possess intellect that even l don't have.
Do medical students attribute their extremely high intellect to good schooling from a young age, be it at school or at home? Can they absorb a lot of information quickly and understand it readily?
If it were possible to increase one's intellect, what suggestions would medical students suggest, aside from hard work? How exactly do students with high intellect approach problem solving and study?
I believe there are students with outstanding grades out there who were just taught brilliantly at a good school, and thus were well-drilled to succeed. Then there are the students who didn't go to a particularly good school, yet they excelled despite the challenges of being at a poor school. These students are of particular interest to me, as they must have either excellent genetics, or they were brought up well at home by their parents, who helped develop their curiosity and love for learning and problem solving.
Why is this important? There will always be a smarter person somewhere? I am nagging you about this because the love of knowledge in academia is often blocked by confirmation hysteria. A citation is technically just a facebook like. The text was written before the citation and the citation is therefore not relevant for the text. Still academia is boiling with rivalry and power struggles. Often it is fueled by money. They cant do what they want if they don't get funding. But not always. I am not blaming particular people, because this is what the system is like. I just wish people were more conscious of this.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by michaelhw
Why is this important? There will always be a smarter person somewhere? I am nagging you about this because the love of knowledge in academia is often blocked by confirmation hysteria. A citation is technically just a facebook like. The text was written before the citation and the citation is therefore not relevant for the text. Still academia is boiling with rivalry and power struggles. Often it is fueled by money. They cant do what they want if they don't get funding. But not always. I am not blaming particular people, because this is what the system is like. I just wish people were more conscious of this.
Your post makes no sense.
Original post by Physician
Your post makes no sense.
Your post makes no sense. Why are you making a statement on here if you 'don't care what anyone says'. You think Medicine students are the pinnacle of academia - ok? What do you want to know?
I always got the impression the challenge with medicine was the volume of material covered, not it being especially conceptually difficult to understand. I hear some of the specialty exams can be pretty intensive once medics graduate though...?
I would think a PhD would be a much more significant contribution to human understanding and require much more involved cognitive skills to undertake original research. I would also like to think a PhD graduate would recognise this...there's a world of difference in conducting original research and in learning a huge volume of information.
I would think a PhD would be a much more significant contribution to human understanding and require much more involved cognitive skills to undertake original research. I would also like to think a PhD graduate would recognise this...there's a world of difference in conducting original research and in learning a huge volume of information.
Original post by artful_lounger
I always got the impression the challenge with medicine was the volume of material covered, not it being especially conceptually difficult to understand. I hear some of the specialty exams can be pretty intensive once medics graduate though...?
I would think a PhD would be a much more significant contribution to human understanding and require much more involved cognitive skills to undertake original research. I would also like to think a PhD graduate would recognise this...there's a world of difference in conducting original research and in learning a huge volume of information.
I would think a PhD would be a much more significant contribution to human understanding and require much more involved cognitive skills to undertake original research. I would also like to think a PhD graduate would recognise this...there's a world of difference in conducting original research and in learning a huge volume of information.
A PhD is challenging initially, but once you find your feet and know what you are doing, it isn't that hard. I found the first year tough, but since then it has been relatively comfortable. I do mine in Computational Biology.
What makes you think that medicine is the pinnnacle of academia? Medicine as a course is not particularly difficult to understand and the average medical student is not a genius…. I was around average in medical school but i definitely wouldn’t consider myself “smart as heck”.
Re schooling, I went to a very strong academic school up to the age of 9. After that, I was in below average to average comprehensives. No tutors or any input from parents at home. Wouldn’t say I’m particularly fast at absorbing information, but I do have good short-term memory. Problem solving (in a clinical setting) has more to do with practice and expereince than intellect, I would say.
Re schooling, I went to a very strong academic school up to the age of 9. After that, I was in below average to average comprehensives. No tutors or any input from parents at home. Wouldn’t say I’m particularly fast at absorbing information, but I do have good short-term memory. Problem solving (in a clinical setting) has more to do with practice and expereince than intellect, I would say.
Original post by girl_in_black
What makes you think that medicine is the pinnnacle of academia? Medicine as a course is not particularly difficult to understand and the average medical student is not a genius…. I was around average in medical school but i definitely wouldn’t consider myself “smart as heck”.
Re schooling, I went to a very strong academic school up to the age of 9. After that, I was in below average to average comprehensives. No tutors or any input from parents at home. Wouldn’t say I’m particularly fast at absorbing information, but I do have good short-term memory. Problem solving (in a clinical setting) has more to do with practice and expereince than intellect, I would say.
Re schooling, I went to a very strong academic school up to the age of 9. After that, I was in below average to average comprehensives. No tutors or any input from parents at home. Wouldn’t say I’m particularly fast at absorbing information, but I do have good short-term memory. Problem solving (in a clinical setting) has more to do with practice and expereince than intellect, I would say.
It is all relative. I don't consider myself as really smart, just quite clever and level headed. To a school drop out who failed most of his GCSEs l might be considered really clever by comparison. I consider medical students as significantly more intelligent than myself, but l am a big believer of self development and enhancing cognitive abilities.
You were asking similar questions four weeks ago.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7494205
As before, I don’t think they’re savants. Just capable and well motivated.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7494205
As before, I don’t think they’re savants. Just capable and well motivated.
Original post by Physician
I don't care what anyone says - l think a student who can get at least AAA in Biology, Chemistry and Physics / Maths and a good UCAT / BMAT score is smart as heck. As for medical school, they can only assess you on material covered in lectures / tutorials in the main. I know of one medical student from Imperial College who said he never even made any extra notes, and he only revised the lecture / tutorial material. He is now a qualified doctor.
My medical school assessed us on things that we were not taught in tutorials and lectures all the time. There was a lot of self-directed learning involved. We had curriculum guides of what we needed to know, and there was a lot more to know than what formal teaching included!
As an example, we were assessed on a procedure during our practical exam in 3rd year that was never directly taught to us - it was just something we were expected to have picked up during our placements. And in fact, a lot of out practical exams in later years had scenarios that were not something we were directly taught - stuff we should know, sure, but stuff that was covered in lectures. Same with clinical exams in later years - some things may have been covered in tutorials on placement but those often didn't happen for whatever reason, so we had to cover the knowledge gaps ourselves.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by girl_in_black
My medical school assessed us on things that we were not taught in tutorials and lectures all the time. There was a lot of self-directed learning involved. We had curriculum guides of what we needed to know, and there was a lot more to know than what formal teaching included!
As an example, we were assessed on a procedure during our practical exam in 3rd year that was never directly taught to us - it was just something we were expected to have picked up during our placements. And in fact, a lot of out practical exams in later years had scenarios that were not something we were directly taught - stuff we should know, sure, but stuff that was covered in lectures. Same with clinical exams in later years - some things may have been covered in tutorials on placement but those often didn't happen for whatever reason, so we had to cover the knowledge gaps ourselves.
As an example, we were assessed on a procedure during our practical exam in 3rd year that was never directly taught to us - it was just something we were expected to have picked up during our placements. And in fact, a lot of out practical exams in later years had scenarios that were not something we were directly taught - stuff we should know, sure, but stuff that was covered in lectures. Same with clinical exams in later years - some things may have been covered in tutorials on placement but those often didn't happen for whatever reason, so we had to cover the knowledge gaps ourselves.
Is it possible that there is a variation in standards of teaching and assessment among medical schools? Which medical school did you attend?
Original post by Physician
Is it possible that there is a variation in standards of teaching and assessment among medical schools? Which medical school did you attend?
Well yes, that's not a possibility, that's a fact (hence why the UKMLA is being brought in). All UK medical degrees are approved by the GMC though.
I went to Aberdeen.
Original post by girl_in_black
What makes you think that medicine is the pinnnacle of academia? Medicine as a course is not particularly difficult to understand and the average medical student is not a genius…. I was around average in medical school but i definitely wouldn’t consider myself “smart as heck”.
Re schooling, I went to a very strong academic school up to the age of 9. After that, I was in below average to average comprehensives. No tutors or any input from parents at home. Wouldn’t say I’m particularly fast at absorbing information, but I do have good short-term memory. Problem solving (in a clinical setting) has more to do with practice and expereince than intellect, I would say.
Re schooling, I went to a very strong academic school up to the age of 9. After that, I was in below average to average comprehensives. No tutors or any input from parents at home. Wouldn’t say I’m particularly fast at absorbing information, but I do have good short-term memory. Problem solving (in a clinical setting) has more to do with practice and expereince than intellect, I would say.
Well, the medical faculties are the ones with cash, and they also have higher admissions standards than let's say English lit. But most of what happens is not Dr House, but routine. And many things in academic medicine are also routine. They change the numbers in their double blind randomized template, attach the names of four people and ship it off for publication. I would claim that very few professors make more than two or three original contributions in their career. This is the norm. And I dont think you can expect more either..from anyone.
Original post by michaelhw
Well, the medical faculties are the ones with cash, and they also have higher admissions standards than let's say English lit. But most of what happens is not Dr House, but routine. And many things in academic medicine are also routine. They change the numbers in their double blind randomized template, attach the names of four people and ship it off for publication. I would claim that very few professors make more than two or three original contributions in their career. This is the norm. And I dont think you can expect more either..from anyone.
Most medical students are not involved in research (and I don't think research is what OP is asking about).
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by girl_in_black
Most medical students are not involved in research (and I don't think research is what OP is asking about).
A PHD student will normally attach himself or herself to some research group, and then start from there. But re-reading the start of the thread, you are absolutely right 🙂 Sorry.
What he says is actually that smart people study medicine and learn faster. If you need higher grades to join, this statement tells us nothing.
Let me come with a counter argument from economics. The people who become rich are the risk takers, right?
Can this be transferred to research also? I actually don't know, but original hypotheses seldom originate from centers. Science progresses "one funeral at the time".
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by michaelhw
A PHD student will normally attach himself or herself to some research group, and then start from there. But re-reading the start of the thread, you are absolutely right 🙂 Sorry.
What he says is actually that smart people study medicine and learn faster. If you need higher grades to join, this statement tells us nothing.
Let me come with a counter argument from economics. The people who become rich are the risk takers, right?
Can this be transferred to research also? I actually don't know, but original hypotheses seldom originate from centers. Science progresses "one funeral at the time".
What he says is actually that smart people study medicine and learn faster. If you need higher grades to join, this statement tells us nothing.
Let me come with a counter argument from economics. The people who become rich are the risk takers, right?
Can this be transferred to research also? I actually don't know, but original hypotheses seldom originate from centers. Science progresses "one funeral at the time".
Plenty of extremely gifted students study Economics, Maths, Law, Chemical Engineering. Computer Science, and History etc. But there is no doubt that Medical students across the board are very bright as a minimum, and many are gifted, and some are extremely gifted.
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