How much did you earn as a commercial barrister in your first year
Interested in trying to figure out potential earnings at the pupillage stage and post pupillage
Reply 1
Original post by Butterflywings24
Interested in trying to figure out potential earnings at the pupillage stage and post pupillage
In a commercial chambers you could reasonably expect to turnover approximately £100,000 or more. Your profit margin would be around 70%. You would be taxed on your profits.
(edited 9 months ago)
Reply 2
Original post by Stiffy Byng
In a commercial chambers you could reasonably exlect to turnover approximately £100,000 or more. Your profit margin would be around 70%. You would be taxed on your profits.
So what does this look like month to month in terms of figures ? In the first sixth, second sixth and then a year later?
(edited 9 months ago)
Reply 3
Original post by Butterflywings24
So what does this look like month to month in terms of figures ? In the first sixth, second sixth and then a year later?
Monthly receipts are variable. You might go for months without receiving anything.
Original post by Butterflywings24
So what does this look like month to month in terms of figures ? In the first sixth, second sixth and then a year later?
First sixth and second sixth will just be the pupillage award in most commerical sets - practicing second sixes are relatively rarer.
Post-pupillage as Stiffy has said, all bets are off. You mgiht be paid in 3 days, take 3 months, or 6 months, or even a year (or longer).
Reply 5
In my previous chambers (Magic Circle), pupils do no paid work of their own during their second six months of pupillage but they are paid a large pupillage award. In my current chambers (Silver Circle, if that's a thing), pupils do lots of their own work during the second six, but are paid a smaller pupillage award.
If you are lucky, you may be brought into a large case by your pupil supervisor. In your first year, you want lots of small cases but also at least one appellate case with a leader. I spent about half of my pupillage working on Spycatcher for one of the newspapers and was then instructed in the later stages of the case.
Expect to be sent all over the place to do all sorts of this and that at first. Just being the fourth junior in a zillion dollar arbitration pays well but doesn't get you the experience you need.
If you are lucky, you may be brought into a large case by your pupil supervisor. In your first year, you want lots of small cases but also at least one appellate case with a leader. I spent about half of my pupillage working on Spycatcher for one of the newspapers and was then instructed in the later stages of the case.
Expect to be sent all over the place to do all sorts of this and that at first. Just being the fourth junior in a zillion dollar arbitration pays well but doesn't get you the experience you need.
Reply 6
Original post by Blayze
First sixth and second sixth will just be the pupillage award in most commerical sets - practicing second sixes are relatively rarer.
Post-pupillage as Stiffy has said, all bets are off. You mgiht be paid in 3 days, take 3 months, or 6 months, or even a year (or longer).
Post-pupillage as Stiffy has said, all bets are off. You mgiht be paid in 3 days, take 3 months, or 6 months, or even a year (or longer).
How is it paid? I know a portion is paid in the first 6 in instalments then the second sixth is earnings. But if your pupillage award is pretty steep. Are you really just having like £4000 of installments each month in the bank account?
Have you had to take out loans or apply for grants while waiting on second sixth earnings, or did you just budget?
Original post by Butterflywings24
How is it paid? I know a portion is paid in the first 6 in instalments then the second sixth is earnings. But if your pupillage award is pretty steep. Are you really just having like £4000 of installments each month in the bank account?
Have you had to take out loans or apply for grants while waiting on second sixth earnings, or did you just budget?
Have you had to take out loans or apply for grants while waiting on second sixth earnings, or did you just budget?
As above, second six in most commercial places is fully paid, so you do just get the £4k odd into your bank account. I don't know enough about proper practicing second sixes and how they are paid, but quite a few places do guaranteed earnings which I suspect are paid similarly (with any earnings you do make then being taken by chambers until you hit what you have been paid/guaranteed).
Original post by Blayze
As above, second six in most commercial places is fully paid, so you do just get the £4k odd into your bank account. I don't know enough about proper practicing second sixes and how they are paid, but quite a few places do guaranteed earnings which I suspect are paid similarly (with any earnings you do make then being taken by chambers until you hit what you have been paid/guaranteed).
That's right for a properly practising second six. Any month you don't hit the 'guaranteed earnings' threshold Chambers will top it up. I have heard of some sets not doing it monthly and instead waiting until the end of second six to see the overall billing, but those are smaller sets and not in commercial practices. And I expect they're outliers. You shouldn't need to take out a loan or similar at a commercial set. There should be more than enough to live on from the first six grant and second six payments, whether topped up from guaranteed earnings or not.
Reply 9
Original post by Blayze
As above, second six in most commercial places is fully paid, so you do just get the £4k odd into your bank account. I don't know enough about proper practicing second sixes and how they are paid, but quite a few places do guaranteed earnings which I suspect are paid similarly (with any earnings you do make then being taken by chambers until you hit what you have been paid/guaranteed).
Wow! this is probably peanuts to you but it is a lot generally speaking.
How did you decide to use your pupillage award? Did you go on holiday or upgrade your house?
Similarly, why do a lot of barristers appear quietly rich as opposed to showing how wealthy they are through their clothes for example
Reply 10
Original post by Crazy Jamie
That's right for a properly practising second six. Any month you don't hit the 'guaranteed earnings' threshold Chambers will top it up. I have heard of some sets not doing it monthly and instead waiting until the end of second six to see the overall billing, but those are smaller sets and not in commercial practices. And I expect they're outliers. You shouldn't need to take out a loan or similar at a commercial set. There should be more than enough to live on from the first six grant and second six payments, whether topped up from guaranteed earnings or not.
Waiting until the end is torture ! While both you and Blayze have reassured me of most barristers living quite comfortably on chambers income. I do still have that small voice in my head reminding me of some of the uncertainty in getting paid randomly like months or a year later. But I suppose if you make enough , it’s not like you are starving if you get paid “late”
Original post by Butterflywings24
Wow! this is probably peanuts to you but it is a lot generally speaking.
How did you decide to use your pupillage award? Did you go on holiday or upgrade your house?
Similarly, why do a lot of barristers appear quietly rich as opposed to showing how wealthy they are through their clothes for example
How did you decide to use your pupillage award? Did you go on holiday or upgrade your house?
Similarly, why do a lot of barristers appear quietly rich as opposed to showing how wealthy they are through their clothes for example
Whilst I understand the temptation to spend your pupillage award if you come from a background of having little or no money/income, I would suggest that you don't just spend it as soon as it hits your account. Doing a few things here or there to treat yourself is fine, but there will be more where that came from, and getting into a habit of spending money when you get it as a barrister is not a healthy one, not least because most of the money that will hit your account going forwards is not yours, as you need to account for tax and VAT. I would be more careful with it personally, and actually plan for uses such as paying off debt or saving for a deposit for a house. It is entirely up to you though.
As to the second point, most barristers wouldn't be my definition of rich. Higher end commercial barristers may be, but plenty of barristers do show off the amount of money they have, with flashy cars etc. But broadly, having money doesn't mean you have fashion sense, for example, which might account for the clothes.
Original post by Butterflywings24
Waiting until the end is torture ! While both you and Blayze have reassured me of most barristers living quite comfortably on chambers income. I do still have that small voice in my head reminding me of some of the uncertainty in getting paid randomly like months or a year later. But I suppose if you make enough , it’s not like you are starving if you get paid “late”
If you manage your money properly, when you get paid isn't an issue. My aged debt (the amount I'm owed by clients) is six figures, but I have a sufficient income every month, bill enough and am good enough with my money that it doesn't concern me at all. Part of my chambers expenses goes towards clerks and accounts staff whose job it is to chase that money, so I just let them do their job.
Reply 12
Original post by Crazy Jamie
Whilst I understand the temptation to spend your pupillage award if you come from a background of having little or no money/income, I would suggest that you don't just spend it as soon as it hits your account. Doing a few things here or there to treat yourself is fine, but there will be more where that came from, and getting into a habit of spending money when you get it as a barrister is not a healthy one, not least because most of the money that will hit your account going forwards is not yours, as you need to account for tax and VAT. I would be more careful with it personally, and actually plan for uses such as paying off debt or saving for a deposit for a house. It is entirely up to you though.
As to the second point, most barristers wouldn't be my definition of rich. Higher end commercial barristers may be, but plenty of barristers do show off the amount of money they have, with flashy cars etc. But broadly, having money doesn't mean you have fashion sense, for example, which might account for the clothes.
If you manage your money properly, when you get paid isn't an issue. My aged debt (the amount I'm owed by clients) is six figures, but I have a sufficient income every month, bill enough and am good enough with my money that it doesn't concern me at all. Part of my chambers expenses goes towards clerks and accounts staff whose job it is to chase that money, so I just let them do their job.
As to the second point, most barristers wouldn't be my definition of rich. Higher end commercial barristers may be, but plenty of barristers do show off the amount of money they have, with flashy cars etc. But broadly, having money doesn't mean you have fashion sense, for example, which might account for the clothes.
If you manage your money properly, when you get paid isn't an issue. My aged debt (the amount I'm owed by clients) is six figures, but I have a sufficient income every month, bill enough and am good enough with my money that it doesn't concern me at all. Part of my chambers expenses goes towards clerks and accounts staff whose job it is to chase that money, so I just let them do their job.
do you use the 50% on needs, 30% on wants and 20% save rule for spending?
how much do you earn and how much do you pay for rent if you don't mind me asking or have you bought a house (as appropriate)
Have you seen Lord Pannick. He is rolling in money yet he just looks very 'simple'.Besides how he speaks, he does not look wealthy at all.
even from the tone of your message, it comes across as very relaxed and like you are comfortable with where you are financially. i hope to get to this point one day. is it safe to say you are a millionaire? and how long have you been practicing for?
Reply 13
Affluence does not always express itself in a celebrity lifestyle. Having said that, Lord Pannick has a Picasso in the cloakroom of his house in Bushey, because he can. Count the Aston Martins and Maseratis parked in the Inns of Court.
Average gross earnings per barrister at Blackstone, for example, top 600,000 a year, and Pannick turns over several million a year. Most barristers earn more modestly but still well into six figures.
It is possible to become very affluent at the Bar, although, as one of my mentors observed, at the Commercial Bar you will always be a pauper to your clients. Barristers tend to be well to do rather than rich. School fees, city living, second homes, expensive hobbies, and so on, spend the money. The tax bills are large.
Crazy Jamie offers good advice about learning to manage money as a young barrister. Take the view that only half of every fee paid is yours. Set aside the rest for tax and always be ready to pay the VAT. You pay VAT once every three months, and income tax in two big hits twice a year. Start a pension early.
If you go and practise offshore (the Channel Islands, Cayman, the BVI, Dubai) you pay much less tax but the living expenses are higher.
Remember that in chambers you earn nothing when on holiday or off sick. The Bar is a high wire act with no safety net. The freedom of self employment outweighs the hierarchy and bureaucracy of employment, but comes with risks.
If you do well you can rent progressively better flats until you buy a flat or house, preferably with a non-ruinous mortgage. I bought my first flat for cash from one huge case in my sixth year of practice. The family home and big mortgage came later.
Money, fame, and all that are great, but not the only things. I left Blackstone to have a quieter life and am less busy and less well paid than I was ten years ago, but happiness counts more than money.
Average gross earnings per barrister at Blackstone, for example, top 600,000 a year, and Pannick turns over several million a year. Most barristers earn more modestly but still well into six figures.
It is possible to become very affluent at the Bar, although, as one of my mentors observed, at the Commercial Bar you will always be a pauper to your clients. Barristers tend to be well to do rather than rich. School fees, city living, second homes, expensive hobbies, and so on, spend the money. The tax bills are large.
Crazy Jamie offers good advice about learning to manage money as a young barrister. Take the view that only half of every fee paid is yours. Set aside the rest for tax and always be ready to pay the VAT. You pay VAT once every three months, and income tax in two big hits twice a year. Start a pension early.
If you go and practise offshore (the Channel Islands, Cayman, the BVI, Dubai) you pay much less tax but the living expenses are higher.
Remember that in chambers you earn nothing when on holiday or off sick. The Bar is a high wire act with no safety net. The freedom of self employment outweighs the hierarchy and bureaucracy of employment, but comes with risks.
If you do well you can rent progressively better flats until you buy a flat or house, preferably with a non-ruinous mortgage. I bought my first flat for cash from one huge case in my sixth year of practice. The family home and big mortgage came later.
Money, fame, and all that are great, but not the only things. I left Blackstone to have a quieter life and am less busy and less well paid than I was ten years ago, but happiness counts more than money.
Original post by Butterflywings24
do you use the 50% on needs, 30% on wants and 20% save rule for spending?
how much do you earn and how much do you pay for rent if you don't mind me asking or have you bought a house (as appropriate)
Have you seen Lord Pannick. He is rolling in money yet he just looks very 'simple'.Besides how he speaks, he does not look wealthy at all.
even from the tone of your message, it comes across as very relaxed and like you are comfortable with where you are financially. i hope to get to this point one day. is it safe to say you are a millionaire? and how long have you been practicing for?
how much do you earn and how much do you pay for rent if you don't mind me asking or have you bought a house (as appropriate)
Have you seen Lord Pannick. He is rolling in money yet he just looks very 'simple'.Besides how he speaks, he does not look wealthy at all.
even from the tone of your message, it comes across as very relaxed and like you are comfortable with where you are financially. i hope to get to this point one day. is it safe to say you are a millionaire? and how long have you been practicing for?
I don't mind the personal questions. I am about 15 years call and in my late 30s. I bought my first house at the age of 27 and have bought two since. I don't think it's helpful to tell you whether or not I am technically a millionaire, not least because one you earn past a certain level, a person's net worth when their income is based on fees (rather than shares or other equity) is based as much on how they manage their money and what they spend it on as it is their level if income. I have a notably higher net worth than several barristers I know who earn significantly more than me, because they spend more on themselves and have bought very nice cars etc, whereas I have prioritised saving for a house deposit (when I was younger), knocking chunks off my mortgage etc. It's all personal preference to a degree providing you manage your finances competently. And as has been said, you do learn quite quickly than happiness and money are two different things. I have worked less in the past 18 months than in previous years, and will continue to try do so because I have young children and want to spend more time with them. As it happens my earnings are actually still going up because my practice in a more niche area that I've been developing for five or six years now is going well and has kicked into another gear recently, but I'm still earning below what I could be earning if I worked as much as I could. For your purposes the important point is that most barristers, and certainly those practising outside of areas that are predominantly funded by legal aid, earn enough to at some point have a net worth over a million. Again, I don't think that's a particularly helpful yardstick. I earn enough money to the point that I have very financially stable and I do not worry about money. That, I think, is a better measure of earning level.
Lord Pannick has already been commented on, but I'm not sure how you expect someone of his wealth to 'look'. He wears very expensive suits. As a barrister that's pretty much what you can expect in terms of what you will see as a member of the public. He's hardly going to turn up to court dressed in a £50,000 pair of Nike trainers and a gold chain around his neck, is he? There is a serious point here, though. Lord Pannick is not front and centre after a big win like you will see from American lawyers. He is professional. He does his job, and does not seek the limelight. That is exactly how barristers should be and, for the most part, are.
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