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From Freedom Fighters to Thought Police: How the Left Lost Its Way

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Original post by SHallowvale
I have engaged in genuine debate, your problem is that I have the audacity to disagree with you and don't want to talk about thousands of points simultaneously. I confronted the point you made, starting with the claim that people are being called racists and bigots:
"For example, you've said that the left dismiss people as racists and bigots just for being anti-immigration but the closest you have done to prove this is reference something that people supposedly said during the 2016 referendum...? That tells us little about anything because A) it happened nearly 10 years ago and you've given no reason to believe the left currently operates in this way and B) you've not told us who said these things or why they are representative of the wider left."
All you could say in response is "Go away little boy.", "you’re just acting like an infant", etc, alongside several other insults that you have thrown my way. All this talk of me supposedly not 'engaging in genuine debate' seems like a projection.
I'll ask again: do you want to go through these points one by one? Or would you rather ramble about thousands of things and insult other people when they don't do what you say?

I've already given examples... I wonder how you'll shift the goal posts this time? Did they not occur on your street perhaps?

And do I expect you to answer each point... yes. It would have been easier if you had answered as we went along, but the points have stacked up because you've refused to engage until this point.

Let me lay it out for you again with recent examples:

1.

Amber Rudd Incident (2020):
Context: Amber Rudd, former Home Secretary, was invited to speak at an Oxford University event. However, just before she was set to speak, the invitation was rescinded due to her role in the Windrush scandal.
Accusation: Rudd’s involvement in policies seen as hostile to immigrants led to her being labeled as complicit in racism. Critics argued that allowing her to speak would platform racist policies, despite the fact that the event was meant to discuss these very issues.
Outcome: The decision to cancel Rudd’s talk was widely criticized as an example of “cancel culture” and shutting down debate rather than engaging with opposing views.

2.

Trevor Phillips Suspension from Labour (2020):
Context: Trevor Phillips, former head of the UK’s Equality and Human Rights Commission, was suspended from the Labour Party over accusations of Islamophobia.
Accusation: Phillips, a long-time critic of multiculturalism, was accused of racism for comments he made regarding the integration of Muslim communities in the UK. His comments, which questioned the compatibility of certain Islamic practices with British values, were deemed Islamophobic.
Outcome: The suspension was highly controversial, with many arguing that it exemplified how legitimate concerns about integration and multiculturalism are dismissed as bigotry within left-leaning circles.

3.

David Starkey Controversy (2020):
Context: Historian David Starkey made comments in an interview where he said, "Slavery was not genocide, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many damn blacks in Africa or in Britain, would there?”
Accusation: Starkey was widely condemned as racist for these remarks, which led to him losing multiple academic and publishing roles. However, critics also pointed out that Starkey’s entire body of work and other views, which include criticisms of immigration and multiculturalism, were suddenly dismissed as racist without engaging with the content of his arguments.
Outcome: Starkey's example is often cited as a case where the response to his controversial remarks extended to branding all his views as racist, without debate or discussion of his broader positions.

4.

Priti Patel’s Accusations of Racism (2021):
Context: As Home Secretary, Priti Patel has been heavily criticized for her stance on immigration, particularly her support for tough immigration policies, including the controversial Rwanda asylum plan.
Accusation: Patel, despite being of Indian descent, has been labeled by some as a “sell-out” to her race, or accused of perpetuating racist policies. The backlash against her policies often includes accusations that any support for her views is inherently racist or xenophobic.
Outcome: The criticism of Patel frequently avoids substantive debate on the policies themselves, focusing instead on labeling the policies and those who support them as racist.

5.

Keir Starmer and Labour Anti-Semitism Scandal (2020):
Context: The Labour Party, under Jeremy Corbyn, was embroiled in an anti-Semitism scandal, which many argued was mishandled by the leadership.
Accusation: When Keir Starmer became Labour leader, he attempted to address the issue, but the debate often devolved into accusations of racism against those who either defended Corbyn or who were seen as not doing enough to combat anti-Semitism within the party.
Outcome: This incident showcases how discussions around racism and bigotry can often overshadow substantive debate, with accusations taking precedence over a reasoned discussion of the issues at hand.

6.

Nigel Farage’s Departure from LBC (2020):
Context: Nigel Farage, former leader of UKIP and the Brexit Party, was dropped from his show on LBC radio after comments he made comparing the Black Lives Matter movement to the Taliban.
Accusation: Farage was labeled a racist for his comments, and there were widespread calls for him to be deplatformed.
Outcome: Farage’s dismissal from LBC was seen by some as an example of how voices that challenge certain narratives, especially on topics like immigration and national identity, are swiftly silenced with accusations of racism, rather than being debated or discussed.

So, I’ve made the points and given multiple examples, yet here you are, avoiding any real engagement. If you're not willing to address these specific instances and engage in a serious discussion, then what exactly is the point of continuing this exchange?
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by Rincewind_Bored
I've already given examples... I wonder how you'll shift the goal posts this time? Did they not occur on your street perhaps?
And do I expect you to answer each point... yes. It would have been easier if you had answered as we went along, but the points have stacked up because you've refused to engage until this point.
Let me lay it out for you again with recent examples:

1.

Amber Rudd Incident (2020):
Context: Amber Rudd, former Home Secretary, was invited to speak at an Oxford University event. However, just before she was set to speak, the invitation was rescinded due to her role in the Windrush scandal.
Accusation: Rudd’s involvement in policies seen as hostile to immigrants led to her being labeled as complicit in racism. Critics argued that allowing her to speak would platform racist policies, despite the fact that the event was meant to discuss these very issues.
Outcome: The decision to cancel Rudd’s talk was widely criticized as an example of “cancel culture” and shutting down debate rather than engaging with opposing views.

2.

Trevor Phillips Suspension from Labour (2020):
Context: Trevor Phillips, former head of the UK’s Equality and Human Rights Commission, was suspended from the Labour Party over accusations of Islamophobia.
Accusation: Phillips, a long-time critic of multiculturalism, was accused of racism for comments he made regarding the integration of Muslim communities in the UK. His comments, which questioned the compatibility of certain Islamic practices with British values, were deemed Islamophobic.
Outcome: The suspension was highly controversial, with many arguing that it exemplified how legitimate concerns about integration and multiculturalism are dismissed as bigotry within left-leaning circles.

3.

David Starkey Controversy (2020):
Context: Historian David Starkey made comments in an interview where he said, "Slavery was not genocide, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many damn blacks in Africa or in Britain, would there?”
Accusation: Starkey was widely condemned as racist for these remarks, which led to him losing multiple academic and publishing roles. However, critics also pointed out that Starkey’s entire body of work and other views, which include criticisms of immigration and multiculturalism, were suddenly dismissed as racist without engaging with the content of his arguments.
Outcome: Starkey's example is often cited as a case where the response to his controversial remarks extended to branding all his views as racist, without debate or discussion of his broader positions.

4.

Priti Patel’s Accusations of Racism (2021):
Context: As Home Secretary, Priti Patel has been heavily criticized for her stance on immigration, particularly her support for tough immigration policies, including the controversial Rwanda asylum plan.
Accusation: Patel, despite being of Indian descent, has been labeled by some as a “sell-out” to her race, or accused of perpetuating racist policies. The backlash against her policies often includes accusations that any support for her views is inherently racist or xenophobic.
Outcome: The criticism of Patel frequently avoids substantive debate on the policies themselves, focusing instead on labeling the policies and those who support them as racist.

5.

Keir Starmer and Labour Anti-Semitism Scandal (2020):
Context: The Labour Party, under Jeremy Corbyn, was embroiled in an anti-Semitism scandal, which many argued was mishandled by the leadership.
Accusation: When Keir Starmer became Labour leader, he attempted to address the issue, but the debate often devolved into accusations of racism against those who either defended Corbyn or who were seen as not doing enough to combat anti-Semitism within the party.
Outcome: This incident showcases how discussions around racism and bigotry can often overshadow substantive debate, with accusations taking precedence over a reasoned discussion of the issues at hand.

6.

Nigel Farage’s Departure from LBC (2020):
Context: Nigel Farage, former leader of UKIP and the Brexit Party, was dropped from his show on LBC radio after comments he made comparing the Black Lives Matter movement to the Taliban.
Accusation: Farage was labeled a racist for his comments, and there were widespread calls for him to be deplatformed.
Outcome: Farage’s dismissal from LBC was seen by some as an example of how voices that challenge certain narratives, especially on topics like immigration and national identity, are swiftly silenced with accusations of racism, rather than being debated or discussed.

So, I’ve made the points and given multiple examples, yet here you are, avoiding any real engagement. If you're not willing to address these specific instances and engage in a serious discussion, then what exactly is the point of continuing this exchange?

Of these six examples, only the second supports the claim that the left 'call anyone who is anti-immigration or anti-Islam a racist or a bigot'. Even then, funnily you'll find people calling Trevor Phillips a "racist" from the opposite side of the political spectrum (e.g. Nick Griffin who call him a "black racist"). As for the other five:

1. The hostile environment policy of the Home Office (at the time) was indeed racist (or at the very least encouraged racism). This isn't an example of people calling politicians racist for just being anti-immigration, but being racist for supporting racist policies.

3. David Starkey says racist things so people call him a racist. Not sure what the issue with that is, it certainly wasn't the first time he said racist things. As for his wider work, you haven't given examples of people branding all of it racist.

4. "Labeled by some", "accused of perpetuating racist policies" - by whom? "often includes accusations" - when? This is vague, plus you can actually find examples to the contrary. Priti Patel, someone on the hard right, has been very critical of racism and bigotry within the Conservative Party and some segments of society as a whole.

5. What "reasoned discussion of the issues at hand" had been simply labeled as racism and bigotry? Racism and bigotry were the "substantive debate", that was the entire focus of the enquiry into anti-semitism within the Labour party: to find racist elements within the party and remove them.

6. Farage said something racist, was called out for being racist and was sacked for being racist. Funny how "voices that challenge certain narratives" are dismissed as racist when they actually are. Like the others, this isn't an example of people calling politicians racist for just being anti-immigration.
Original post by Rincewind_Bored
It's telling that you frame your disagreement as "genuine debate" when you’re really just cherry-picking a single point to fixate on while ignoring the broader argument. The fact is, I provided detailed points and examples across multiple issues, and instead of engaging with them in a meaningful way, you chose to nitpick one example and dismiss the rest. That’s not debating—that’s dodging.
You keep harping on about the 2016 referendum as if it's irrelevant, but it’s a clear example of how certain narratives are constructed and weaponized, which is still very much happening today. The fact that you dismiss it out of hand because it happened a few years ago shows a lack of willingness to engage with how these trends have evolved.
And let’s be honest—your insistence on reducing this discussion to one single point at a time is just another tactic to avoid dealing with the complexity of the issues. You want to pretend that by focusing narrowly, you can evade the broader context. But the reality is that these issues are interconnected, and they need to be addressed as such.
As for your claim that you’re engaging in genuine debate, if that were the case, you wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the examples I’ve provided, nor would you constantly shift the goalposts whenever you’re presented with evidence that challenges your perspective. It’s clear you’re more interested in deflecting than in having a serious conversation.
So, if you’re truly interested in an honest, comprehensive debate, then start by acknowledging the validity of the points and examples I’ve raised instead of pretending they don’t exist. Otherwise, this is just another exercise in futility, and frankly, that’s getting tiresome.

It's not cherry picking. I told you I'm happy to go through these points one by one, I just have no desire to go through thousands at the same time. To use your own words, it's tedious and boring. Going through them one by one makes it easier to check the validity of each point and it also prevents us talking at cross purposes.

Just because you've given an example doesn't mean it's a valid one or helps your point. You've said, "...start by acknowledging the validity of the points and examples I’ve raised instead of pretending they don’t exist", so you think I should just agree with you on everything and not have the right to challenge these examples?

If all you can do is demand that I accept everything your saying then debates aren't for you. Being a member of the "thought police" would be far more suitable.
Original post by SHallowvale
Of these six examples, only the second supports the claim that the left 'call anyone who is anti-immigration or anti-Islam a racist or a bigot'. Even then, funnily you'll find people calling Trevor Phillips a "racist" from the opposite side of the political spectrum (e.g. Nick Griffin who call him a "black racist"). As for the other five:
1. The hostile environment policy of the Home Office (at the time) was indeed racist (or at the very least encouraged racism). This isn't an example of people calling politicians racist for just being anti-immigration, but being racist for supporting racist policies.
3. David Starkey says racist things so people call him a racist. Not sure what the issue with that is, it certainly wasn't the first time he said racist things. As for his wider work, you haven't given examples of people branding all of it racist.
4. "Labeled by some", "accused of perpetuating racist policies" - by whom? "often includes accusations" - when? This is vague, plus you can actually find examples to the contrary. Priti Patel, someone on the hard right, has been very critical of racism and bigotry within the Conservative Party and some segments of society as a whole.
5. What "reasoned discussion of the issues at hand" had been simply labeled as racism and bigotry? Racism and bigotry were the "substantive debate", that was the entire focus of the enquiry into anti-semitism within the Labour party: to find racist elements within the party and remove them.
6. Farage said something racist, was called out for being racist and was sacked for being racist. Funny how "voices that challenge certain narratives" are dismissed as racist when they actually are. Like the others, this isn't an example of people calling politicians racist for just being anti-immigration.

SHallowvale, your response is a perfect illustration of the issues we've been discussing regarding the Left's refusal to engage in genuine debate. Let's break down some of the logical fallacies and disingenuous tactics you've employed throughout this thread.

Firstly, you've consistently used Straw Man arguments by misrepresenting my points and then arguing against a distorted version of what I've said. For example, when I provided examples of individuals being labelled as racist or bigoted, you attempted to dismiss them by cherry-picking or misinterpreting the context, rather than engaging with the broader pattern of behaviour I was highlighting. This is a classic tactic to avoid addressing the actual substance of the argument.

Secondly, your use of Ad Hominem attacks is evident. Instead of engaging with the points I raised, you continually attempt to discredit me by implying that my arguments lack credibility or by dismissing them outright. This is a diversionary tactic, designed to shift focus away from the issue at hand and onto the person making the argument. Such behaviour is intellectually dishonest and detracts from any meaningful discussion.

Moreover, your reliance on Appeal to Authority fallacies is apparent when you cite vague or unnamed sources to bolster your claims, while simultaneously dismissing well-documented examples I've provided. For instance, you questioned the relevance of the Amber Rudd incident by framing it as justified, without addressing the broader issue of how 'cancel culture' stifles debate by silencing opposing views before they're even heard.

Your approach exemplifies the Maoist tactic we've been discussing—where labelling someone as "deplorable," "racist," or "bigoted" is used to invalidate everything that person says or has ever said. This is dangerous, as it not only shuts down debate but also fails to engage with the underlying issues that are driving a significant portion of the electorate towards figures like Nigel Farage. Whether or not we like Farage, it's undeniable that he's tapped into a sentiment that resonates with a large number of voters. Simply dismissing him as a racist or a bigot without addressing the concerns he's voicing is exactly the kind of behaviour that fuels populism.

Let's be clear: just because you can affix a "deplorable" label to a person doesn't mean that everything they say is without merit. This kind of binary thinking is precisely what leads to the polarised and toxic political environment we find ourselves in today. By refusing to engage with the actual issues and instead resorting to labelling and dismissal, you are doing nothing to advance the conversation or address the real concerns that many people have.

In conclusion, your tactics throughout this thread have been a textbook case of avoidance, deflection, and intellectual dishonesty. If you're genuinely interested in debate, then it's time to stop hiding behind these tactics and start engaging with the arguments presented. Otherwise, you're simply proving the point that the Left has no interest in genuine discussion, preferring instead to silence dissenting voices through the use of labels and misrepresentation.
It’s important for others following this thread to take note of the tactics being employed here, particularly by SHallowvale. While the appearance of engaging in debate might be given, the reality is often far different. What we’re witnessing is a form of intellectual dishonesty that undermines genuine discourse and is emblematic of a broader issue within certain segments of political discussion today.

The strategy of dismissing opposing views by labeling them with terms like "deplorable" or simply discrediting the individuals who hold them without engaging with the substance of their arguments is not only unproductive but dangerous. It fosters a climate where debate is stifled, and where valid concerns are swept under the rug rather than addressed head-on. This is a tactic that has historically been used to shut down dissent and maintain ideological purity, rather than encourage open, critical discussion.

To illustrate this, let’s consider the 2024 General Election results, as reported in the House of Commons Library’s document General Election 2024 Results. Nigel Farage’s Reform UK received significant support, with 4.1 million votes and 14.3% of the vote share, reflecting a substantial portion of the electorate’s concerns and priorities. It’s clear that there is a disconnect between the political establishment and a significant number of voters. Ignoring or dismissing this sentiment as simply "deplorable" does a disservice to democratic discourse and prevents us from addressing the root causes of such widespread discontent. This is not a fringe issue!

For those who wish to understand the broader context of these election results and the impact of such tactics on political debate, I would recommend reviewing the report available at https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-10009/CBP-10009.pdf

As observers, it’s crucial that we recognize these manipulative tactics and resist the temptation to be swayed by them. True debate requires an honest engagement with the facts and a willingness to confront uncomfortable truths. What we should demand is a higher standard of discourse—one that respects differing viewpoints and seeks to understand the underlying issues rather than simply silencing dissenting voices through ad hominem attacks and rhetorical gamesmanship.
Original post by SHallowvale
It's not cherry picking. I told you I'm happy to go through these points one by one, I just have no desire to go through thousands at the same time. To use your own words, it's tedious and boring. Going through them one by one makes it easier to check the validity of each point and it also prevents us talking at cross purposes.
Just because you've given an example doesn't mean it's a valid one or helps your point. You've said, "...start by acknowledging the validity of the points and examples I’ve raised instead of pretending they don’t exist", so you think I should just agree with you on everything and not have the right to challenge these examples?
If all you can do is demand that I accept everything your saying then debates aren't for you. Being a member of the "thought police" would be far more suitable.

It’s increasingly clear that SHallowvale’s approach to this debate is disingenuous and manipulative. He’s engaged in what can only be described as bad-faith argumentation. Let’s break down the issue at hand, starting with the fact that he initially demanded detailed points and examples to support the arguments made. Those were provided in spades, yet instead of engaging with them meaningfully, he’s chosen to dismiss them outright based on criteria that are neither reasonable nor consistent with genuine discourse.

SHallowvale, you’ve accused me of cherry-picking, but the reality is quite different. You asked for examples and received them. Now, you’re invalidating them not because they lack substance but because they don’t align with the narrow framework you’re trying to impose on this discussion. Your insistence that we must address each point in isolation, while you simultaneously reject the broader context, is nothing more than a tactic to avoid the substance of the argument.

Your reasoning—claiming that because an event happened a few years ago, it’s no longer relevant—is fundamentally flawed. The 2016 referendum, for example, is not just an isolated event but a reflection of long-standing issues that continue to shape political discourse today. The narratives formed then are still very much alive, and dismissing their relevance out of hand shows a reluctance to engage with the ongoing impact of these trends. Your argument here seems less about genuine inquiry and more about dodging the uncomfortable truths that these examples bring to light.

Moreover, your approach of reducing this debate to a single point at a time, while ignoring the interconnectedness of the issues, is a deliberate oversimplification. It’s a transparent attempt to evade the complexities that make these discussions necessary in the first place. By isolating each point, you’re trying to create a situation where you can nitpick without having to confront the broader implications of the arguments being made.

Your ad hominem attacks—suggesting that I want you to agree with everything I say without challenge—are not only baseless but also a desperate attempt to deflect from the actual debate. The purpose of the examples provided was to substantiate the broader points made. Instead of engaging with those points, you’ve chosen to attack the method rather than the substance.

Let’s be clear: the examples given were meant to illustrate the points at hand. The fact that you’re avoiding addressing those points directly indicates that you’re not interested in a genuine debate but rather in undermining the discussion with rhetorical tactics. It’s a classic case of attempting to distract from the issue at hand by focusing on the peripheral rather than the central arguments.
Original post by Rincewind_Bored
SHallowvale, your response is a perfect illustration of the issues we've been discussing regarding the Left's refusal to engage in genuine debate. Let's break down some of the logical fallacies and disingenuous tactics you've employed throughout this thread.
Firstly, you've consistently used Straw Man arguments by misrepresenting my points and then arguing against a distorted version of what I've said. For example, when I provided examples of individuals being labelled as racist or bigoted, you attempted to dismiss them by cherry-picking or misinterpreting the context, rather than engaging with the broader pattern of behaviour I was highlighting. This is a classic tactic to avoid addressing the actual substance of the argument.
Secondly, your use of Ad Hominem attacks is evident. Instead of engaging with the points I raised, you continually attempt to discredit me by implying that my arguments lack credibility or by dismissing them outright. This is a diversionary tactic, designed to shift focus away from the issue at hand and onto the person making the argument. Such behaviour is intellectually dishonest and detracts from any meaningful discussion.
Moreover, your reliance on Appeal to Authority fallacies is apparent when you cite vague or unnamed sources to bolster your claims, while simultaneously dismissing well-documented examples I've provided. For instance, you questioned the relevance of the Amber Rudd incident by framing it as justified, without addressing the broader issue of how 'cancel culture' stifles debate by silencing opposing views before they're even heard.
Your approach exemplifies the Maoist tactic we've been discussing—where labelling someone as "deplorable," "racist," or "bigoted" is used to invalidate everything that person says or has ever said. This is dangerous, as it not only shuts down debate but also fails to engage with the underlying issues that are driving a significant portion of the electorate towards figures like Nigel Farage. Whether or not we like Farage, it's undeniable that he's tapped into a sentiment that resonates with a large number of voters. Simply dismissing him as a racist or a bigot without addressing the concerns he's voicing is exactly the kind of behaviour that fuels populism.
Let's be clear: just because you can affix a "deplorable" label to a person doesn't mean that everything they say is without merit. This kind of binary thinking is precisely what leads to the polarised and toxic political environment we find ourselves in today. By refusing to engage with the actual issues and instead resorting to labelling and dismissal, you are doing nothing to advance the conversation or address the real concerns that many people have.
In conclusion, your tactics throughout this thread have been a textbook case of avoidance, deflection, and intellectual dishonesty. If you're genuinely interested in debate, then it's time to stop hiding behind these tactics and start engaging with the arguments presented. Otherwise, you're simply proving the point that the Left has no interest in genuine discussion, preferring instead to silence dissenting voices through the use of labels and misrepresentation.

I asked you to give examples showing that the left calls people racists / biogots just for being anti-immigration. You gave six examples in response, only one of which actually supported your claim.

It's not a straw man for me to point out that most of your examples weren't relevant to your claim (i.e. didn't support what you were saying). It's not an appeal to authority to ask for clarity on your vague claims (i.e. instead of saying 'some people say this', tell me who says it). It's not a Maoist tactic to label someone who says racist things as a racist, nor have I dismissed everything someone says as racist solely because they have said racist things in the past.

It's not an ad hominem attack to point out that your argument isn't believable because you have only one example to help you. Speaking of ad hominem attacks, I'd like to remind you of some of the things you've said: "disingenuous and manipulative", "little boy", "you're just acting like an infant", "intellectually dishonest", etc. All because I've asked you to provide examples and not talk about thousands of things at once.
Original post by Rincewind_Bored
It’s increasingly clear that SHallowvale’s approach to this debate is disingenuous and manipulative. He’s engaged in what can only be described as bad-faith argumentation. Let’s break down the issue at hand, starting with the fact that he initially demanded detailed points and examples to support the arguments made. Those were provided in spades, yet instead of engaging with them meaningfully, he’s chosen to dismiss them outright based on criteria that are neither reasonable nor consistent with genuine discourse.
SHallowvale, you’ve accused me of cherry-picking, but the reality is quite different. You asked for examples and received them. Now, you’re invalidating them not because they lack substance but because they don’t align with the narrow framework you’re trying to impose on this discussion. Your insistence that we must address each point in isolation, while you simultaneously reject the broader context, is nothing more than a tactic to avoid the substance of the argument.
Your reasoning—claiming that because an event happened a few years ago, it’s no longer relevant—is fundamentally flawed. The 2016 referendum, for example, is not just an isolated event but a reflection of long-standing issues that continue to shape political discourse today. The narratives formed then are still very much alive, and dismissing their relevance out of hand shows a reluctance to engage with the ongoing impact of these trends. Your argument here seems less about genuine inquiry and more about dodging the uncomfortable truths that these examples bring to light.
Moreover, your approach of reducing this debate to a single point at a time, while ignoring the interconnectedness of the issues, is a deliberate oversimplification. It’s a transparent attempt to evade the complexities that make these discussions necessary in the first place. By isolating each point, you’re trying to create a situation where you can nitpick without having to confront the broader implications of the arguments being made.
Your ad hominem attacks—suggesting that I want you to agree with everything I say without challenge—are not only baseless but also a desperate attempt to deflect from the actual debate. The purpose of the examples provided was to substantiate the broader points made. Instead of engaging with those points, you’ve chosen to attack the method rather than the substance.
Let’s be clear: the examples given were meant to illustrate the points at hand. The fact that you’re avoiding addressing those points directly indicates that you’re not interested in a genuine debate but rather in undermining the discussion with rhetorical tactics. It’s a classic case of attempting to distract from the issue at hand by focusing on the peripheral rather than the central arguments.

The reason I want to go through your points one at a time is because your posts are needlessly lengthy and full of waffle. It's far easier to have a debate about whats happens in reality if we don't talk about thousands of things at once. In fact, such a debate is far more intellectually honest; you have to focus far more on the validity of each individual claim, not dance around it by rambling about dozens of things at once.
Original post by SHallowvale
The reason I want to go through your points one at a time is because your posts are needlessly lengthy and full of waffle. It's far easier to have a debate about whats happens in reality if we don't talk about thousands of things at once. In fact, such a debate is far more intellectually honest; you have to focus far more on the validity of each individual claim, not dance around it by rambling about dozens of things at once.

The Gish Gallop and moving of goalposts are favourite tactics of disingenuous debaters. Just as projection is a common resort of people with untenable positions.
Original post by 2WheelGod
The Gish Gallop and moving of goalposts are favourite tactics of disingenuous debaters. Just as projection is a common resort of people with untenable positions.

Agreed, when an argument doesn't work it is easy to fall back on 'well, look at the bigger picture'. It's why point-by-point arguments are far more intellectually honest, you can't hide behind thousands of thing.

The sort of people who prefer to talk about thousands of things at once are the Ben Shapiros and Jordan Petersons of the world, where 'winning' a debate is about giving a never ending stream of unsubstantiated claims and denying others the time to pick things apart.
Original post by SHallowvale
I asked you to give examples showing that the left calls people racists / biogots just for being anti-immigration. You gave six examples in response, only one of which actually supported your claim.
It's not a straw man for me to point out that most of your examples weren't relevant to your claim (i.e. didn't support what you were saying). It's not an appeal to authority to ask for clarity on your vague claims (i.e. instead of saying 'some people say this', tell me who says it). It's not a Maoist tactic to label someone who says racist things as a racist, nor have I dismissed everything someone says as racist solely because they have said racist things in the past.
It's not an ad hominem attack to point out that your argument isn't believable because you have only one example to help you. Speaking of ad hominem attacks, I'd like to remind you of some of the things you've said: "disingenuous and manipulative", "little boy", "you're just acting like an infant", "intellectually dishonest", etc. All because I've asked you to provide examples and not talk about thousands of things at once.

I want to start by apologising for the tone I used earlier, specifically when I told you to "go away" and referred to you as a "little boy." This was out of frustration with how our conversation was progressing, and while my frustration was genuine, the way I expressed it was not constructive or appropriate. For that, I am sorry.

That being said, let's address the rest of your points and examples, and consider whether they do indeed constitute ad hominem attacks, or if they serve a different purpose within our debate.

Firstly, an ad hominem attack is when someone attacks the character or motive of a person rather than addressing the substance of their argument. This tactic is often used to undermine an opponent's credibility without engaging with their actual points. However, calling out someone for using specific tactics in a debate—like misrepresenting arguments or evading key issues—is not necessarily an ad hominem attack. Instead, it can be a legitimate critique of how someone is engaging in the discussion.

When I referred to your arguments as "disingenuous and manipulative," I was criticising the methods you've used throughout this debate—specifically, your tendency to dismiss examples or arguments without fully engaging with them. This was not meant as a personal attack on your character, but rather a critique of the approach you've taken in this conversation. If I didn’t make that clear, then I acknowledge that I could have phrased my critique more precisely.

Now, let's break down your examples to determine whether they truly counter my points or if they miss the mark:

1.

Amber Rudd Incident (2020): You dismissed this as irrelevant by suggesting the criticism of Rudd was justified due to her association with the Windrush scandal. However, my point was about the broader pattern of shutting down debate by disinviting speakers, rather than addressing the issues they were meant to discuss. This example illustrates how "cancel culture" can stifle discussion, even when controversial figures are involved.

2.

Trevor Phillips Suspension from Labour (2020): This example directly supports my claim that the left can label people as racists or bigots for raising concerns about immigration or cultural integration. Phillips was suspended over comments that questioned aspects of multiculturalism and the integration of Muslim communities, which were deemed Islamophobic. This is precisely the kind of overreach that I was highlighting.

3.

David Starkey Controversy (2020): You argue that Starkey's comments were clearly racist and therefore justified his being labeled as such. While Starkey’s comments were indeed controversial and offensive, my point was that the response often extends beyond condemning specific remarks to dismissing the entirety of someone’s work or contributions. This broad-brush approach prevents any nuanced discussion of the underlying issues.

4.

Priti Patel’s Accusations of Racism (2021): You questioned who labeled Patel as racist or xenophobic. The reality is that criticism of her policies, particularly regarding immigration, often includes such accusations. My argument is not that these labels are never warranted, but that they are sometimes used to shut down debate rather than to foster it.

5.

Keir Starmer and Labour Anti-Semitism Scandal (2020): The anti-Semitism scandal within Labour, particularly under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, became a highly charged issue. While it's crucial to address and root out any form of racism, the way this scandal was handled raises significant questions. Despite the intense media scrutiny and internal investigations, the evidence of widespread or institutional anti-Semitism within Labour was far from conclusive. The scandal often appeared less about tackling genuine instances of anti-Semitism and more about undermining Corbyn's leadership.

6.

Nigel Farage’s Departure from LBC (2020): You argue that Farage’s comments were racist and therefore his removal was justified. However, the broader issue here is that dismissing and deplatforming voices like Farage’s without engaging with the concerns they raise only deepens divisions. Farage taps into real, albeit controversial, sentiments that resonate with a significant portion of the electorate. Ignoring or silencing these voices without addressing their concerns can fuel the rise of populism.


While you may not agree with my interpretation of these examples, they were not provided as mere "one-offs" but as part of a broader pattern of behavior. The intent was to illustrate how debate is often stifled, not by engaging with arguments, but by dismissing the individuals who make them. If we're going to have a meaningful conversation, it’s essential to engage with the substance of these examples rather than dismissing them out of hand.
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Original post by SHallowvale
Agreed, when an argument doesn't work it is easy to fall back on 'well, look at the bigger picture'. It's why point-by-point arguments are far more intellectually honest, you can't hide behind thousands of thing.
The sort of people who prefer to talk about thousands of things at once are the Ben Shapiros and Jordan Petersons of the world, where 'winning' a debate is about giving a never ending stream of unsubstantiated claims and denying others the time to pick things apart.

It's interesting to see how the idea of addressing the broader picture in a debate and acknowledging the intersectionality and interplay between issues is being framed here as a right-wing tactic. This is not only incorrect but also reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the intellectual traditions on both sides of the political spectrum.

First, let’s clarify the point about Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson. These figures are known for their piecemeal approach to debates, often focusing on isolated issues rather than considering the broader context. They tend to dissect arguments point by point, sometimes ignoring the larger, interconnected nature of social and political problems. This is a deliberate strategy that allows them to avoid engaging with the more complex and nuanced aspects of the issues they discuss. By tackling each point in isolation, they sidestep the messy reality that issues often overlap, influence one another, and cannot be fully understood in isolation.

In contrast, thinkers on the Left, such as Robin DiAngelo, Kimberlé Crenshaw, and Judith Butler, are known for their willingness to engage with the complexities of social issues through frameworks like intersectionality, post-modernism, and critical theory. These frameworks recognise that issues like race, gender, class, and sexuality do not exist in a vacuum but are interrelated and influence one another in significant ways. For example, Crenshaw's concept of intersectionality has been pivotal in understanding how different forms of discrimination and privilege intersect, shaping the experiences of individuals in ways that cannot be fully captured by examining each factor in isolation.

Post-modernism, another intellectual tradition often associated with the Left, challenges the notion of objective truths and highlights the role of power in shaping knowledge and societal structures. It encourages us to question taken-for-granted assumptions and to consider how various discourses intersect and shape our understanding of the world. This is the very opposite of a simplistic, one-issue-at-a-time approach.

Addressing the "big picture" in debates is not a tactic to avoid scrutiny but rather a necessary approach to fully understand the complexities of the issues at hand. The idea that focusing on the broader context is somehow intellectually dishonest or a form of evasion is, frankly, an inversion of reality. It is precisely by considering the broader context that we can uncover the deeper, systemic issues that one-dimensional analyses often overlook.

The reality is that complex problems require complex solutions, and understanding them requires us to look at how various factors intersect and interact. This is not only an intellectually honest approach but also the only way to ensure that we are addressing the root causes of the issues rather than just their symptoms. In contrast, isolating each issue and tackling it as if it exists in a vacuum leads to oversimplified solutions that fail to address the underlying problems.

The assertion that examining the bigger picture is a right-wing tactic is entirely misguided. It is actually a cornerstone of modern left-wing thought, which recognises that the complexities of our social world cannot be adequately understood—or effectively addressed—without taking into account the intersectionality and interconnectedness of the issues at play.
Now you've repeatedly asked for examples... so I shall endeavour to give you even more examples for even more points.

1. Cultural Friction and Immigration Concerns:
Point: The claim is that legitimate concerns about immigration and its impact on public services and housing are often dismissed or brushed aside by certain segments of the Left as mere xenophobia or bigotry. This isn’t an abstract claim—this is a real, observable trend in how these issues are framed in public discourse.
Examples:

1.

Rotherham Grooming Scandal (2021):
In the wake of the Rotherham grooming scandal, concerns were raised about how the authorities failed to act for fear of being labelled as racist. This concern was often dismissed by parts of the Left as an attempt to stoke Islamophobia. However, the official report found that over 1,400 children had been sexually abused, and the failure to address this was partly due to fears of being accused of racism, which was dismissed as a non-issue by some commentators on the Left.

2.

Labour Party’s Internal Report on Anti-Semitism (2020):
Concerns about anti-Semitism within the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn were frequently dismissed by certain segments of the party as being overblown or as part of a smear campaign by opponents. While legitimate concerns about the party’s handling of anti-Semitism were raised, they were often brushed aside, contributing to a broader sense that issues like this were not being taken seriously.

3.

Channel Crossings and Public Services (2022-2023):
The issue of migrants crossing the English Channel has been a major topic of public debate. Concerns about the impact on public services such as housing, healthcare, and welfare were often dismissed as xenophobic by certain media outlets and commentators. However, the strain on local services in coastal towns has been documented, showing that the concerns are based on real-world impacts.

4.

Grenfell Tower Inquiry (2021-2023):
During the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire, some of the concerns about how the local government and housing associations ignored the complaints of residents (many of whom were immigrants) were initially dismissed by some as attempts to stir up racial tensions. However, it was later revealed that there were significant failures that disproportionately affected the immigrant population living in the tower, showing that these concerns were legitimate and needed addressing rather than dismissal.

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2. Cancel Culture and Deplatforming
Point: The claim is that there is a growing trend of "cancel culture" where individuals who express views outside the accepted orthodoxy are deplatformed or ostracised. This is not a figment of imagination; it is a well-documented phenomenon that has seen academics, writers, and public figures lose their platforms or face severe backlash for voicing dissenting opinions.
Examples:

1.

Kathleen Stock Controversy (2021-2022):
Professor Kathleen Stock, a philosophy professor at the University of Sussex, faced significant backlash and calls for her to be removed from her position due to her gender-critical views on transgender issues. Despite being a respected academic, Stock was subjected to protests, and her work environment became so hostile that she eventually resigned from her position. This case highlights how expressing dissenting opinions on sensitive issues can lead to severe professional and personal consequences, effectively silencing debate.

2.

J.K. Rowling and Transgender Debate (2020-Present):
J.K. Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter series, has faced significant backlash and calls for her books to be boycotted after she made comments on social media that were perceived as transphobic. Despite her history of progressive views, Rowling has been publicly vilified, with some publishers and bookstores distancing themselves from her work. This has become one of the most high-profile examples of cancel culture, where an individual’s entire body of work and contributions are dismissed due to a single set of opinions that go against the current orthodoxy.

3.

David Starkey’s Comments on Slavery (2020):
Historian David Starkey made controversial comments in an interview where he downplayed the impact of slavery, saying, "Slavery was not genocide, otherwise, there wouldn’t be so many damn blacks in Africa or in Britain, would there?" Starkey faced swift and severe repercussions, losing multiple academic and publishing roles. While his comments were widely condemned as offensive, the response also led to broader discussions about whether Starkey's entire career and body of work should be dismissed due to one set of remarks. This case illustrates how quickly a person can be deplatformed for voicing controversial opinions.

4.

Germaine Greer and University Deplatforming (2015):
Feminist writer Germaine Greer was disinvited from speaking at Cardiff University after students protested her appearance due to her views on transgender issues. Greer has been a vocal critic of certain aspects of transgender ideology, and despite her long history of feminist activism, she was labelled as transphobic and faced efforts to silence her. This incident is an example of how even long-standing figures in social movements can be deplatformed if their views conflict with current trends.

5.

No-Platforming of Israeli Academics (2018-2022):
Several Israeli academics and speakers have been no-platformed from UK universities in recent years due to their perceived support of Israel’s policies towards Palestinians. Events featuring these speakers were often cancelled due to protests and threats of disruption. This has raised concerns about the stifling of academic debate and the exclusion of voices based on political positions, rather than engaging in open discussion.


These examples demonstrate how cancel culture and deplatforming have become tools used to silence dissenting voices, rather than engaging with and debating differing opinions. This trend undermines the principle of free speech and academic freedom, which are essential for a healthy and functioning democracy.
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3. The Problem with Referendums
Point: The claim here is that referendums, particularly on complex issues like immigration, are dangerous and can be manipulated by populists. The Brexit referendum is cited as a prime example of how such processes can lead to deeply divisive and harmful outcomes. The argument is that nuanced issues cannot be adequately addressed through binary choices, which can result in long-term political and social instability.

Examples:

1.

Brexit Referendum (2016):
The Brexit referendum is perhaps the most prominent example of the dangers of using a referendum to decide on a complex issue. The choice presented to voters—whether to remain in or leave the European Union—oversimplified a highly complex political, economic, and social relationship into a binary decision. The campaign leading up to the vote was marked by misinformation and emotional appeals, with populist rhetoric, particularly from the Leave campaign, playing a significant role. The aftermath of the vote has seen years of political instability, deepening divisions within the UK, and significant economic uncertainty. The complexity of the issue and the simplistic nature of the referendum result have led to widespread debate about whether such important decisions should be made through referendums at all.

2.

Scottish Independence Referendum (2014):
The Scottish independence referendum is another example where a binary choice on a complex issue led to significant and lasting divisions. While Scotland voted to remain part of the United Kingdom, the close result (55% to 45%) highlighted deep divisions within the country. The debate leading up to the vote was highly charged, and the result has left Scotland politically polarised. The question of independence continues to dominate Scottish politics, with calls for a second referendum persisting, demonstrating how referendums can entrench divisions rather than resolve them.

3.

Catalonia Independence Referendum (2017):
In 2017, the Catalonian government held an independence referendum, despite it being declared illegal by the Spanish government. The referendum, which asked a simple yes/no question on independence, led to significant unrest and a violent crackdown by Spanish authorities. The result, with a large majority voting for independence, was marred by low turnout (as many unionists boycotted the vote) and the broader political crisis it triggered. The situation in Catalonia remains unresolved, with the referendum exacerbating tensions between the region and the central Spanish government.

4.

Colombian Peace Referendum (2016):
In 2016, the Colombian government held a referendum on whether to accept a peace deal with the FARC guerrillas, aimed at ending decades of conflict. The referendum result was a narrow rejection of the deal (50.2% to 49.8%), which came as a shock to many. The referendum was criticised for reducing a complex and deeply emotional issue to a simple yes/no question, leading to a result that many felt did not adequately reflect the needs and desires of those most affected by the conflict. The government eventually bypassed the referendum result by approving a modified version of the peace deal through the Colombian Congress, highlighting the limitations of referendums in resolving complex issues.

5.

Swiss Minaret Referendum (2009):
Switzerland’s 2009 referendum on whether to ban the construction of minarets is an example of how referendums can be used to push populist agendas. The referendum, which resulted in a ban on the construction of new minarets, was criticised for targeting a specific religious group (Muslims) and for fuelling xenophobic sentiments. The campaign was marked by fear-mongering and misinformation, and the result has been seen as a step backwards for religious freedom and tolerance in Switzerland. This case illustrates how referendums can be manipulated to serve populist ends, with significant social and political consequences.

These examples demonstrate the risks of using referendums to decide on complex and nuanced issues. While referendums can be a tool for direct democracy, they often reduce intricate matters to simplistic choices, leading to outcomes that may not reflect the full range of public opinion or adequately address the complexities involved. This can result in long-term political instability, social division, and the entrenchment of populist narratives.
4. The Role of Critical Social Justice Ideology
Point: The argument here is that certain segments of the contemporary Left, influenced by Critical Social Justice theories, reject the traditional tools of rational debate and discussion. Instead, these tools are viewed as inherently oppressive, leading to a reluctance to engage with opposing viewpoints. This, in turn, is seen as a root cause of the Left's avoidance of meaningful debate and its tendency to silence dissenting opinions.
Examples:

1.

Evergreen State College Protests (2017):

At Evergreen State College in Washington, USA, a planned "Day of Absence" where white students and faculty were asked to leave campus sparked significant controversy. Biology professor Bret Weinstein criticised the event, arguing that asking people to leave based on their race was a form of racial segregation. In response, protests erupted, demanding Weinstein's resignation. The situation escalated to the point where the campus was effectively shut down, and Weinstein was forced to conduct classes off-campus due to safety concerns. The incident is often cited as an example of how Critical Social Justice ideology can stifle debate and enforce ideological conformity.
2.Cambridge University's Removal of Academic from White Working Class Lecture (2019):
Cambridge University faced backlash after cancelling a lecture on the marginalisation of white working-class boys, which was to be delivered by Dr. James Orr. The lecture was cancelled following student complaints that the topic could be seen as divisive and offensive. Critics argued that this was an example of how Critical Social Justice ideology can lead to the suppression of discussions that do not align with its perspectives on race and class. The cancellation was seen as indicative of a broader trend within academia, where certain topics are deemed too controversial or politically incorrect to be discussed.
3.Speech Restrictions at UK Universities (2021):
A report by the Free Speech Union in 2021 highlighted the growing number of restrictions on free speech at UK universities. The report found that students and staff were increasingly afraid to express views that might be seen as contrary to Critical Social Justice ideology, particularly on issues related to race, gender, and identity. The report cited multiple examples of speakers being disinvited, lectures being cancelled, and students facing disciplinary action for expressing dissenting views. This reflects the broader trend of prioritising ideological conformity over open debate in academic settings.
4.J.K. Rowling and the Transgender Debate (2020):
Author J.K. Rowling faced intense backlash and was labelled transphobic after expressing concerns about the implications of certain aspects of transgender activism, particularly on women's rights. While Rowling stated that she supported transgender rights, her questioning of some elements of the movement led to widespread calls for her to be "cancelled" and her books to be boycotted. This incident illustrates how Critical Social Justice ideology can result in the silencing of voices that question or critique certain narratives, even when those voices advocate for a more nuanced discussion.
5.Harvard University and the Debate on Israel-Palestine (2021):
At Harvard University, there was controversy over the student-led campaign to "boycott, divest, and sanction" (BDS) Israel, which gained significant traction on campus. However, students and faculty who opposed the BDS movement or supported Israel found themselves increasingly marginalised and labelled as complicit in human rights abuses. The debate on campus became polarised, with those advocating for a pro-Israel stance feeling pressured to remain silent. This is another example of how Critical Social Justice ideology can create an environment where certain perspectives are deemed unacceptable, leading to a lack of open debate on contentious issues.
6.Glasgow University's Gender Studies Department (2021):
In 2021, Glasgow University’s Gender Studies Department came under scrutiny after several students reported being penalised academically for expressing views that were not aligned with the department’s ideological stance on gender and sexuality. Students who questioned aspects of gender identity theory or supported a more traditional understanding of biological sex were reportedly given lower grades and were encouraged to either conform to the department’s views or leave the programme. This situation highlights how Critical Social Justice ideology can be used to enforce conformity and suppress academic freedom.

These examples demonstrate how the influence of Critical Social Justice ideology in academic and public discourse can lead to the suppression of debate and the silencing of dissenting opinions. The reluctance to engage with opposing viewpoints, coupled with the tendency to label dissenters as inherently oppressive or bigoted, undermines the principles of open discourse and rational debate. This has significant implications for the health of public debate and the ability to address complex social issues in a balanced and thoughtful manner.
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5. The Shift in the Left's Ideology
Point: The argument here is that the Left, traditionally a champion of civil liberties, free speech, and individual rights, has increasingly shifted towards a more authoritarian stance. This shift is characterised by a move from defending individual autonomy to enforcing ideological conformity, where dissent is often silenced rather than debated.
Examples:

1.

Keir Starmer’s Stance on Free Speech within the Labour Party (2020-Present):

Under Keir Starmer's leadership, the Labour Party has been criticised for its handling of members who express views that deviate from the party line, particularly on issues such as Israel-Palestine and gender identity. Members who have raised concerns about the influence of trans rights activism on women's rights, or who have criticised Israeli government policies, have faced suspensions and expulsions. This has led to accusations that the party is moving away from its traditional commitment to free speech and open debate, instead enforcing a rigid conformity to the leadership's views.

2.The Expulsion of Jeremy Corbyn from the Labour Party Whip (2020):
Jeremy Corbyn, former Labour Party leader, was suspended from the party whip following his response to a report on anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. Corbyn suggested that the scale of anti-Semitism within the party had been exaggerated by the media, a statement that led to his suspension. Critics argue that Corbyn's suspension was not just about his comments on anti-Semitism, but part of a broader effort to purge the party of left-wing elements that were seen as out of step with the leadership's move towards the centre. This has been cited as an example of the party's authoritarian turn, where dissenting views are punished rather than debated.

3.The Introduction of Live Facial Recognition Technology by Sadiq Khan (2023):
In 2023, London Mayor Sadiq Khan supported the Metropolitan Police’s use of live facial recognition technology in public spaces. This decision was met with significant opposition from civil liberties groups, who argued that it represented an authoritarian overreach and posed a serious threat to individual privacy and freedom. The fact that this initiative was backed by a Labour Mayor highlights the shift within parts of the Left towards supporting measures that prioritise state control and surveillance over individual rights, a stance that many argue is at odds with traditional left-wing values.

4.University Speech Codes and Safe Spaces (2021):
Many UK universities, traditionally seen as bastions of free thought and debate, have increasingly implemented speech codes and designated "safe spaces" that restrict certain types of speech deemed offensive or harmful. While these measures are often justified as protecting students from hate speech or harassment, they have been criticised for creating environments where free expression is curtailed, and only certain viewpoints are allowed to be expressed. This trend has been linked to a broader authoritarian shift within the Left, where the focus has moved from protecting individual rights to enforcing a particular ideological orthodoxy.

5.The Labour Party's Response to Anti-Semitism Allegations (2019-2021):
The Labour Party’s handling of anti-Semitism allegations, particularly under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, led to significant internal conflict and the eventual suspension of Corbyn himself. While the party faced legitimate concerns about anti-Semitism, the way these issues were managed—often through the suspension and expulsion of members rather than open discussion—was seen by some as an authoritarian response. The party's approach was viewed as prioritising control and discipline over addressing the underlying issues through debate and dialogue, further indicating a shift away from the party's traditional values of free speech and individual rights.

6.The Handling of the "Gender Recognition Act" Debate (2020-2022):
The debate over reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) to allow for self-identification of gender without medical approval became highly contentious within the Labour Party and the broader left-wing movement. Those who opposed the reforms, particularly feminists concerned about the implications for women’s rights, were often labelled as transphobic and faced significant backlash. This environment of hostility towards dissenting opinions created a situation where debate was stifled, and only the dominant narrative was allowed to be expressed. The handling of this issue exemplifies the shift towards enforcing ideological conformity at the expense of open debate within the Left.

7.The Labour Party’s Approach to Law and Order (2022):
In the run-up to the 2022 local elections, Labour leader Keir Starmer emphasised the party’s commitment to being "tough on crime," including support for measures such as increased police powers and more severe sentencing. This stance marked a significant departure from the party’s previous focus on civil liberties and criminal justice reform. Critics argued that this shift represented a move towards authoritarianism, as the party appeared to prioritise state control and punishment over the protection of individual rights and the pursuit of social justice.

8.Live Facial Recognition Technology (2024):
Keir Starmer's recent proposal to expand the use of live facial recognition technology in the UK has drawn significant criticism from civil liberties groups. Campaigners have argued that this move would effectively introduce a national ID system based on people's faces, a practice more akin to autocratic states like China and Russia. The broad deployment of such surveillance technology raises significant concerns about privacy and civil liberties, highlighting a disturbing shift towards authoritarianism within the current Labour leadership. This is a clear departure from the Left's traditional stance on protecting individual rights and freedoms. I have posted about this in a separate forum topic today.

These examples illustrate how the Left, particularly within the Labour Party, has increasingly adopted positions and policies that reflect a more authoritarian approach, moving away from its historical commitment to civil liberties, free speech, and individual rights. This shift has led to concerns that the Left is becoming less open to dissent and debate, instead enforcing strict adherence to its current ideological positions.
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6.Comparison to Maoist Thought
A significant part of the argument was the comparison of the current trends within the Left to Maoist thinking. The post drew parallels between the Left's current focus on ideological purity and the tactics used during Mao's Cultural Revolution, where deviation from the party line was met with public denouncement and ostracism.

Concrete Examples:

1.

The Purging of Jeremy Corbyn (2020-2021): Jeremy Corbyn's suspension from the Labour Party and the broader efforts to marginalise his influence within the party are reminiscent of Maoist purges, where those who deviate from the accepted ideology are publicly denounced and excluded. Corbyn, who represented a more traditional left-wing stance, was increasingly isolated and criticised by the party leadership under Keir Starmer, not for any criminal act but for ideological differences. This is similar to the Maoist approach of enforcing ideological conformity by silencing or removing dissenting voices.

2.

Labour’s Approach to Internal Dissent (2020-2024): Under Starmer's leadership, Labour has shown a tendency to quash internal dissent, particularly from the party's left-wing faction. Members who express views that deviate from the leadership’s centrist approach have faced disciplinary action, suspension, or expulsion. This mirrors the Maoist tactic of ensuring that all party members adhere strictly to the official line, with little tolerance for diversity of thought or debate within the organisation.

3.

The Response to Criticism of Labour’s Stance on Israel (2021-2024): Those within Labour who have criticised the party’s stance on Israel, particularly regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, have often been met with severe backlash, including accusations of anti-Semitism. While anti-Semitism is a serious issue that must be addressed, the manner in which accusations have been used to silence critics—often without a thorough examination of the actual content of their statements—echoes the Maoist tactic of labelling and punishing those who do not align with the party’s current ideological stance.

4.

Expanding Use of Surveillance Technology (2024): The proposal by Keir Starmer to expand the use of live facial recognition technology can be seen as an extension of this Maoist tendency towards control and conformity. Just as Maoist China relied on widespread surveillance and the suppression of dissent, the deployment of such technology in the UK raises concerns about the state’s ability to monitor and control its citizens. This move further aligns with an authoritarian approach that prioritises state control over individual freedoms​.

These examples highlight a troubling trend within the Left, where the enforcement of ideological purity and the suppression of dissent are increasingly reminiscent of Maoist practices. The focus on conformity and the use of punitive measures against those who challenge the party line are indicative of a shift towards a more authoritarian and less democratic approach.
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7. The Role of Academia
The post also critically examined how academia has played a role in this shift, with universities turning into indoctrination centres rather than bastions of free thought and debate. It pointed out that the current generation of students, influenced by social sciences, is more inclined to chant slogans than engage in meaningful discussion, mirroring the dogmatic tendencies seen in authoritarian regimes.
Concrete Examples:

1.

No-Platforming in Universities (2020-2023): A growing trend in British universities has been the no-platforming of speakers whose views are deemed controversial or offensive. For instance, in 2020, former Home Secretary Amber Rudd was disinvited from speaking at an event at Oxford University due to her role in the Windrush scandal. This incident, along with others, highlights how universities are increasingly avoiding engagement with challenging ideas, instead opting to shield students from viewpoints that contradict their own. This approach discourages open debate and critical thinking, fostering an environment where only a narrow range of ideas is considered acceptable.

2.

Safe Spaces and Trigger Warnings (2021-2024): The increasing use of safe spaces and trigger warnings in universities, while intended to protect vulnerable students, has been criticised for stifling debate and limiting academic freedom. Critics argue that this culture creates an environment where students are shielded from any ideas that might cause discomfort, leading to a generation less capable of handling dissent or engaging with challenging viewpoints. This mirrors the authoritarian approach of controlling discourse to maintain ideological conformity.

3.

The Handling of Controversial Research (2022-2024): In recent years, there have been instances where academics conducting research on controversial topics, such as gender and race, have faced significant backlash. For example, in 2022, a professor at the University of Sussex was harassed and forced to resign due to her gender-critical views. Such incidents illustrate how academic institutions are becoming increasingly hostile to research that challenges prevailing social justice ideologies, reflecting a broader trend of ideological conformity within academia.

4.

Pressure on Universities to Conform to Governmental Expectations (2024): Under the Starmer government, there has been increased pressure on universities to align with state policies, particularly in the areas of surveillance and social conformity. The expansion of live facial recognition technology, as discussed in the Guardian article on Starmer’s proposals, raises concerns about the role of academic institutions in normalising state surveillance. Universities, which should be centres of critical thinking and resistance to authoritarianism, are instead being co-opted into supporting and legitimising these measures​. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/aug/02/starmer-live-facial-recognition-plan-would-usher-in-national-id-campaigners-warn


These examples demonstrate the ways in which academia is increasingly reflecting the authoritarian tendencies observed in wider left-wing politics. Rather than fostering an environment of open debate and critical thinking, universities are becoming spaces where ideological conformity is enforced, and dissenting views are suppressed. This shift has profound implications for the future of free thought and academic freedom in the UK.
8. Group Identity and Ideological Conformity
The post explored how the Left has increasingly pushed for a monolithic group identity, where individuals are expected to conform to specific beliefs based on their group affiliation. This trend erodes individual agency and critical thinking, as people are judged more by their group identity than by their personal views or actions.
Concrete Examples:

1.

Labour Party and Group Identity Politics (2023-2024): Under Keir Starmer's leadership, the Labour Party has seen a shift towards emphasising group identity politics. For example, during the 2024 general election campaign, there was significant pressure within the party for candidates to conform to specific ideological stances on issues such as trans rights and Israel-Palestine, irrespective of their personal beliefs. This trend towards enforcing ideological conformity based on group identity has led to internal tensions within the party and alienation of members who do not fully align with the dominant narrative.

2.

Criticism of Gay Conservatives (2023): A notable instance of this occurred in 2023, when a prominent gay Conservative MP faced significant backlash from LGBTQ+ activists and within his own community for supporting government policies on immigration and national security. The criticism was not based on the content of his views, but rather on the notion that, as a gay man, he should align with the more progressive, left-wing stance typically associated with LGBTQ+ advocacy. This illustrates how group identity is being used to enforce ideological conformity, rather than allowing individuals to hold diverse opinions.

3.

Women's March Leadership Controversy (2022): In 2022, there was significant controversy within the Women’s March movement, particularly regarding the inclusion of Jewish leaders who did not align with the movement’s stance on Israel. These leaders were pressured to step down, with their Jewish identity being used as a basis for ideological exclusion. This case highlights how group identity is used to enforce ideological purity, sometimes at the expense of inclusivity and diversity of thought.

4.

Criticism of Ethnic Minority Tories (2023-2024): Ethnic minority Conservatives, including figures like Kemi Badenoch and Priti Patel, have often faced accusations of being "race traitors" or "sell-outs" for holding conservative views on issues like immigration and national identity. This criticism is not based on their policies but rather on the expectation that their ethnic background should align them with left-wing, progressive stances. This expectation erodes individual agency and reduces people to their group identities, rather than recognising the legitimacy of diverse viewpoints within any community.

5.

Gender and Identity Politics in Universities (2022-2024): In academic settings, there has been growing pressure on students and faculty to conform to specific ideological positions based on their gender identity. For instance, students who identify as feminists but hold gender-critical views have faced ostracism and even disciplinary action in some universities. This enforcement of a monolithic gender ideology undermines the principle of academic freedom and discourages critical thinking.

These examples demonstrate how the Left's increasing emphasis on group identity and ideological conformity is stifling individual agency and critical thinking. By pressuring individuals to conform to specific beliefs based on their identity, rather than engaging with their ideas and arguments, this trend is contributing to a more polarised and less inclusive political landscape.

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