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randdom
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#21
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#21
(Original post by NTG_)
What about the personal freedom argument?

I am personally against any ban on fox hunting, without ever wishing to hunt myself. Simply, I do not wish to see the government take more and more freedoms off people, because one day, there may be a serious movement to ban something that I do wish to partake in.
I suppose some prohunt people may use that argument. Although by that standard I don't see why any animal abuse can be considered wronge. I don't understand how it can be personal freedom to hunt a fox but not so to abuse a cat. Surely both are suffering.
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NTG_
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#22
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#22
(Original post by randdom)
I suppose some prohunt people may use that argument. Although by that standard I don't see why any animal abuse can be considered wronge. I don't understand how it can be personal freedom to hunt a fox but not so to abuse a cat. Surely both are suffering.
Hunting is not the same thing as abuse.
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Chrism
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#23
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#23
(Original post by NTG_)
What about the personal freedom argument?

I am personally against any ban on fox hunting, without ever wishing to hunt myself. Simply, I do not wish to see the government take more and more freedoms off people, because one day, there may be a serious movement to ban something that I do wish to partake in.
Excellent argument. I find it highly amusing how many people claim to be liberals, and then turn around and start demanding that their pet hate of the week be banned.
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Chrism
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#24
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#24
(Original post by randdom)
I suppose some prohunt people may use that argument. Although by that standard I don't see why any animal abuse can be considered wronge. I don't understand how it can be personal freedom to hunt a fox but not so to abuse a cat. Surely both are suffering.
As unpleasant as I find the whole spectacle surrounding fox hunting, there are some legitimate reasons for hunting as a form of control. In many ways its far more humane than shooting or poisoning for example. Abusing a cat however serves no legitimate purpose.
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jamieuk20
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#25
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#25
(Original post by lessthanthree)
such as?

hugging them to death?
lol
Or perhaps giving them a bottle of warm breast milk and overfeeding them... it's a little something called the food chain, people!!! You can be damn sure that if foxes were above us in the grand scheme of things they wouldn't think twice about eating us, in much the same way as a cat doesn't pause for thought when it kills a mouse.
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NDGAARONDI
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#26
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#26
(Original post by NTG_)
What about the personal freedom argument?
In an ideal world I'd love to have personal freedom to do the same to my arch enemies, but the law states otherwise. Pity.
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NDGAARONDI
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Chrism)
In many ways its far more humane than shooting or poisoning for example.
I never knew that during fox hunting that the foxes died instantly. :rolleyes:
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Golden Maverick
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#28
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#28
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
I never knew that during fox hunting that the foxes died instantly. :rolleyes:
Fox hunting either kills the fox, or it gets away. Poisoning is undoubtedly slower, and shooting can only injure the fox, leading again to a slow death. Although a clean shot is probably less painful than death by foxhunting.
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NDGAARONDI
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#29
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#29
It is my understanding that many foxes do not die instantly and are ripped to shreds by the hounds. A bit like a human being butchered by having all limbs torn off etc.
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Golden Maverick
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#30
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#30
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
It is my understanding that many foxes do not die instantly and are ripped to shreds by the hounds. A bit like a human being butchered by having all limbs torn off etc.
Any evidence here is purely anecdotal. Above I was careful not to emphasise the amount of pain a fox might experience in each case, for as far as I know no-one can answer that.
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NDGAARONDI
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Golden Maverick)
for as far as I know no-one can answer that.
Foolfarian mentioned something about this. Think it was on the first page.
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Golden Maverick
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#32
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#32
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Foolfarian mentioned something about this. Think it was on the first page.
(Original post by Foolfarian)
Foxes on the other hand as a higher mammal do feel pain in the same way as we do.
That one?

That was in regard to comparing fishing to fox hunting. He wasn't talking about the different ways of killing foxes.
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NDGAARONDI
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Golden Maverick)
That was in regard to comparing fishing to fox hunting. He wasn't talking about the different ways of killing foxes.
Yes but you can take that into account when discussing the issue of fox hunting. Obviously if they feel pain the same way as we do that could have bearings on the methods of population control, since that is used as an argument in favour of retaining fox hunting.
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Golden Maverick
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#34
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#34
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Yes but you can take that into account when discussing the issue of fox hunting. Obviously if they feel pain the same way as we do that could have bearings on the methods of population control, since that is used as an argument in favour of retaining fox hunting.
Absolutely. I don't disagree that foxes can't experience pain, although I might disagree that they feel pain in 'the same way that we do' as I think humans associate emotions with pain in many cases and foxex do not. I also agree that choosing a relatively pain free method of killing foxes is important.
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NDGAARONDI
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Golden Maverick)
I also agree that choosing a relatively pain free method of killing foxes is important.
A reason why some people are against fox hunting wholly or partially. It is also a waste that the carcass is not used constructively. I've come across people who think it's cruel to go out foxhunting but eat fish. Fish when caught die the slowest I believe - suffocation. Whereas cows and pigs are just shot killing them instantly.

I'd be interested to see those who are pro fox hunting to see if they agree with bull fighting which you see in Spain and Mexico.
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Golden Maverick
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#36
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#36
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
I'd be interested to see those who are pro fox hunting to see if they agree with bull fighting which you see in Spain and Mexico.
I so not agree with bull fighting. That is completely different to fox hunting.
1. It has no purpose except entertainment
2. The object is to draw it out and cause pain
3. The animal is exhausted, has spears thrown into it, and only then is killed.
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NDGAARONDI
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Golden Maverick)
I so not agree with bull fighting. That is completely different to fox hunting.
1. It has no purpose except entertainment
2. The object is to draw it out and cause pain
3. The animal is exhausted, has spears thrown into it, and only then is killed.
People could say that about fox hunting and that population control is an excuse used as a disguise for the real reasons as to why they do it. I mean, you can have specialised people to control the numbers of foxes, this happens with deer at the moment.
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Golden Maverick
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#38
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#38
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
A reason why some people are against fox hunting wholly or partially. It is also a waste that the carcass is not used constructively. I've come across people who think it's cruel to go out foxhunting but eat fish. Fish when caught die the slowest I believe - suffocation. Whereas cows and pigs are just shot killing them instantly.
We wen't over the fish thing just now, there is evidence that they do not experience pain in the same way (although IMO many people don't care for the way fish die as much not because of this but because they aren't furry).
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Tednol
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#39
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#39
(Original post by durhamlad1)
fox hunters = scum
Narrowminded fool.
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Golden Maverick
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#40
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#40
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
People could say that about fox hunting and that population control is an excuse used as a disguise for the real reasons as to why they do it. I mean, you can have specialised people to control the numbers of foxes, this happens with deer at the moment.
Let's consider the points I raised then:
1. No point to bull fighting - the fox population does need to be controlled, fox hunting kills foxes in farming areas, therefore it must have some benefit in controlling the fox population. There is no equivalence between bull fighting on this issue.
2. The object of bull fighting is to draw out the kill - while in fox hunting the animal is chased, this in itself does not cause pain, it is a natural thing to escape predators. Once the fox is reached by the hounds, they are trying to kill the fox as quickly as possible, the dogs are not trained to prolong the kill.
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