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Oxford realistic ?

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This conversation is just absolutely making my day! I just wish we could see your social media accounts thegeek888. I love that you dive in to any Oxbridge thread offering links and stats a-plenty. But like many posters on here I find your game plan utterly baffling….
Original post by Stiffy Byng
Last summer. Aesthetics are subjective, but I can't see Exeter as architecturally comparable to Oxford or Cambridge.
I think that Exeter is a good university. It was one of the five I applied to zillions of years ago.
A school friend who is an Exeter alumna and in touch with her university tells me that she is concerned by social stratification related to the price differentials applied to the university's accommodation. When she was at Exeter, everyone paid the same for rooms, and there was a lot of social mixing, but now students are separated by the depths of their or their parents' pockets. This might now be an issue at several universities.
Colleges at Oxford and Cambridge tend to chuck everyone in together, posh and not posh, which is better for social mixing. I had only met one person who'd been to a private school when I started at Wadham, which at that time was about 55/45 State/private. My privately educated daughter hasn't met many people from state schools (except me and her other relatives), but she will do so when she starts at St Peter's next month. Some of them will be on the same staircase as her, not in another building on the other side of town.
thegeek888 may be happy to hear that my Exeter alumna friend (who was not posh when she went there to read history but is mega posh now, and engages in philanthropy), made millions in retail. He may be less happy to hear that she did that by working very hard and not by dreaming.

Oxford college choice differentiates people - some colleges have far more fee-paying students and Oxford needs to do FAR more. Some colleges are not accessible at all for example and MH support needs to improve massively.

Didn't your daughter meet normal people outside school e.g sport, music?

I disagree re Exeter's campus -
Original post by Muttley79
Oxford college choice differentiates people - some colleges have far more fee-paying students and Oxford needs to do FAR more. Some colleges are not accessible at all for example and MH support needs to improve massively.
Didn't your daughter meet normal people outside school e.g sport, music?
I disagree re Exeter's campus -

Which colleges aren't accessible at all? Every college has a mixture of state and private students, and their accommodation doesn't depend on the depth of their pockets. The overall mix is now about 70 /30 ish State/private.

"Normal people"? Are people who attend private schools abnormal? Do they have three heads? I shared a room at Wadham with someone from a private school. Only one head visible. I am not in a position to judge whether my daughter's cousins are "normal", but they went to state schools. My daughter's sport is shooting at targets with a rifle, and she met people from various schools when on the GB team for her age group, although rifle shooting is a sport more common in private schools than in state ones.

I am not sure what more Oxford can do, given the inequalities built into UK society and reinforced by four decades of Neoliberal chaos. Some problems need to be addressed by governments, and can't be solved by one or two universities. Socio/economic inequality starts at birth. In an ideal UK, there would be no private schools, and no selective schools of any kind, but the UK is far from an ideal place. I was lucky to go to a comprehensive school back when they really were comprehensive, before selection at age eleven crept back in by various means in many areas.

Oxford has raised ethnic minority membership of the university to above the relative population level in the age group 18-25. How to improve the life chances of working class children is a big problem, but, as I said, it's too big a problem for any university to solve.

You may perhaps be unfamiliar with the access programs run by the university and by some colleges, for example Wadham and LMH. Wadham's new undergraduate building, paid for by a Hong Kong entrepreneur and a Wadham Rhodes Scholar who became a tech billionaire, has a dedicated access facility to support aspirants from disadvantaged backgrounds.
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
Which colleges aren't accessible at all? Every college has a mixture of state and private students, and their accommodation doesn't depend on the depth of their pockets. The overall mix is now about 70 /30 ish State/private.
"Normal people"? Are people who attend private schools abnormal? Do they have three heads? I shared a room at Wadham with someone from a private school. Only one head visible. I am not in a position to judge whether my daughter's cousins are "normal", but they went to state schools. My daughter's sport is shooting at targets with a rifle, and she met people from various schools when on the GB team for her age group, although rifle shooting is a sport more common in private schools than in state ones.
I am not sure what more Oxford can do, given the inequalities built into UK society and reinforced by four decades of Neoliberal chaos. Some problems need to be addressed by governments, and can't be solved by one or two universities. Socio/economic inequality starts at birth. In an ideal UK, there would be no private schools, and no selective schools of any kind, but the UK is far from an ideal place. I was lucky to go to a comprehensive school back when they really were comprehensive, before selection at age eleven crept back in by various means in many areas.
Oxford has raised ethnic minority membership of the university to above the relative population level in the age group 18-25. How to improve the life chances of working class children is a big problem, but, as I said, it's too big a problem for any university to solve.
You may perhaps be unfamiliar with the access programs run by the university and by some colleges, for example Wadham and LMH. Wadham's new undergraduate building, paid for by a Hong Kong entrepreneur and a Wadham Rhodes Scholar who became a tech billionaire, has a dedicated access facility to support aspirants from disadvantaged backgrounds.

70% is disgusting frankly ... far more needs to be done.

I'm a teacher so of course I know of the access stuff - it's not enough.

Does Balliol have accessible rooms - the dining room is up a flight of steps. The rooms I stayed in did not have toilets or showers that wheelchair users could use. Somerville? Lots of stairs ..
OP are you there?
Original post by Muttley79
70% is disgusting frankly ... far more needs to be done.
I'm a teacher so of course I know of the access stuff - it's not enough.
Does Balliol have accessible rooms - the dining room is up a flight of steps. The rooms I stayed in did not have toilets or showers that wheelchair users could use. Somerville? Lots of stairs ..

How is 70% ‘disgusting’? The share of pupils getting A*A*A or better at A level who are at state schools is 76%. Doubtless there’s always more to be done but 70% is very close to that number hardly what I’d call ‘disgusting’.
Original post by Anonymous
How is 70% ‘disgusting’? The share of pupils getting A*A*A or better at A level who are at state schools is 76%. Doubtless there’s always more to be done but 70% is very close to that number hardly what I’d call ‘disgusting’.

It is bad as it really has stalled since 2019 - no reason why 80% shouldn't be from state that I can see. The whole application process needs an overhaul.
Original post by Muttley79
It is bad as it really has stalled since 2019 - no reason why 80% shouldn't be from state that I can see. The whole application process needs an overhaul.

Well as I’ve said, 80% would actually be a higher state-educated share than amongst high achieving pupils as a whole. The argument that some try to make that the current admissions policy discriminates against private school applicants is definitely ridiculous rather it’s been a needed levelling of the playing field but consciously trying to hit a target of 80% state school offers almost certainly would require that discrimination.
Original post by Anonymous
Well as I’ve said, 80% would actually be a higher state-educated share than amongst high achieving pupils as a whole. The argument that some try to make that the current admissions policy discriminates against private school applicants is definitely ridiculous rather it’s been a needed levelling of the playing field but consciously trying to hit a target of 80% state school offers almost certainly would require that discrimination.

Why anon?

Why would 80% require manipulation? About 18% go to fee-apying sixth form so this seems about right.
Original post by Muttley79
Why anon?
Why would 80% require manipulation? About 18% go to fee-apying sixth form so this seems about right.

Because, to repeat myself, pupils at private schools get higher grades on average. This is not exactly surprising seeing as they’re more selective (especially at sixth form level where there are more scholarships available etc.)
Original post by Anonymous
Because, to repeat myself, pupils at private schools get higher grades on average. This is not exactly surprising seeing as they’re more selective (especially at sixth form level where there are more scholarships available etc.)

Enough state school students get the grades to get in - Oxbridge don't do enough/ They could take people who drop a grade by one mark couldn't they?
Analysis of university entrants should also consider the types and locations of state schools. Not all state schools are equal. The best ones match or exceed private schools in the quality of education provided. The worst state schools are way behind. No university can fix this by itself.

Access to leading universities is dominated by middle class pupils from the South East of England. The socio-economic profiles of such pupils are often similar to those of private school pupils (although in Muttley's eyes only the former are "normal", whatever that means).

This is one reason why, for example, St Peter's College, Oxford focuses on Merseyside. My daughter will have to brush up on her Scouse. Wadham has a particular focus on Tower Hamlets and on deprived areas of Essex. Other colleges do various things to widen access.

Selective entry to State schools at age 11 can be as socially divisive as the private school market. "Kes" remains relevant decades after the book and film appeared.
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by Muttley79
Enough state school students get the grades to get in - Oxbridge don't do enough/ They could take people who drop a grade by one mark couldn't they?

Colleges do admit students who have dropped a grade in some cases. They look at each case individually. The colleges can't accept a dropped grade in every case. If they did so, AAA would become AAB, and then AAC etc. There aren't enough places, and land availability and planning constraints limit further expansion of the university. The UK needs more good universities, not fewer. But, given the limited number of places, universities have to draw lines somewhere.
Original post by Muttley79
70% is disgusting frankly ... far more needs to be done.
I'm a teacher so of course I know of the access stuff - it's not enough.
Does Balliol have accessible rooms - the dining room is up a flight of steps. The rooms I stayed in did not have toilets or showers that wheelchair users could use. Somerville? Lots of stairs ..

30% or more of Exeter University students went to private schools. Is Exeter disgusting? One of the articles below puts the 2023 figure at 60%, but that must be an exaggeration. The trend appears to be upwards at Exeter and Durham, but downward at Oxford and Cambridge.

https://exepose.com/2021/02/22/finished-class-privilege-exeters-private-school-proportion-growing/

https://exepose.com/2023/04/24/does-exeter-university-have-a-class-problem/


Anyway, what do you suggest should be done? Complaining about a problem doesn't solve it.
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
30% or more of Exeter University students went to private schools. Is Exeter disgusting? One of the articles below puts the 2023 figure at 60%, but that must be an exaggeration. The trend appears to be upwards at Exeter and Durham, but downward at Oxford and Cambridge.
https://exepose.com/2021/02/22/finished-class-privilege-exeters-private-school-proportion-growing/
https://exepose.com/2023/04/24/does-exeter-university-have-a-class-problem/
Anyway, what do you suggest should be done? Complaining about a problem doesn't solve it.

Exeter don't have entrance tests or formal interviews though do they? The whole Oxbridge entrance system favours fee-paying schools who can give prep to students.
I teach at a state school that does give this support and that how we get bright students in - many state schools don't have this luxury.
Original post by Muttley79
Exeter don't have entrance tests or formal interviews though do they? The whole Oxbridge entrance system favours fee-paying schools who can give prep to students.
I teach at a state school that does give this support and that how we get bright students in - many state schools don't have this luxury.

You appear to overlook the point that your school might be part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Exeter is on a trajectory to have more private school students. That doesn't seem to bother you, for some reason. I suspect that if Oxford got to the point where it admitted just one token Etonian every year, with everyone else going from schools like yours, you'd still find something to criticise. Meanwhile, students at tough schools in Hartlepool continue to get a raw deal.

I wait to see if Starmer's Labour can undo the damage inflicted on education and social mobility by Joseph, Adonis, Gove, and other ideologues over the last forty plus years.
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
You appear to overlook the point that your school might be part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Exeter is on a trajectory to have more private school students. That doesn't seem to bother you, for some reason. I suspect that if Oxford got to the point where it admitted just one token Etonian every year, with everyone else going from schools like yours, you'd still find something to criticise. Meanwhile, students at tough schools in Hartlepool contine to get a raw deal.
I wait to see if Starme's Labour can undo the damage inflicted on education and social mobility by Joseph, Adonis, Gove, and other ideologues over the last forty plus years.

No, fee-paying schools are the problem plus Government funding. How dare you blame me for giving up my non-paid time to support students!!

We do support other schools - I have a brief to do that so again why are we the problem??? I taught in Hastings [an EAZ] for many years so am far more aware of inequality - many places worse than Hartlepool.

Scrap fee-paying schools would ensure better funding for state schools - Labour politicians would have to use them not just talk the talk.
I have no idea what you do with your spare time, and I blame you for nothing. This discussion isn't about you.

Selective schooling divides the population at about age eleven, and adds another and arguably even more significant element to the social division which private schools foster. When a university says "80% of our students went to state schools", it may omit to mention that most of that 80% went to selective schools in affluent areas.

I can't see that abolishing fee-paying schools would increase state funding for education. Removing the charitable status of private schools (which is not justified in many cases but is justified in some), and making them subject to VAT would raise some funds, although not a vast amount in context. I think that Labour should go ahead with that policy, which has been talked of for decades, but doing so won't wave a magic wand.

I would prefer that all schools should be free at the point of use and non-selective, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
I have no idea what you do with your spare time, and I blame you for nothing. This discussion isn't about you.
Selective schooling divides the population at about age eleven, and adds another and arguably even more significant element to the social division which private schools foster. When a university says "80% of our students went to state schools", it may omit to mention that most of that 80% went to selective schools in affluent areas.
I cant see that abolishing fee-paying schools would increase state funding for education. Removing the charitable status of private schools (which is not justified in many cases but is justified in some), and making them subject to VAT would raise some funds, although not a vast amount in context. I think that Labour should go ahead with that policy, which has been talked of for decades, but doing so won't wave a magic wand.
I would prefer that all schools should be free at the point of use and non-selective, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.

You accused my school of being part of the problem so YOU dragged me into this ..

Grammar schools are not a uniform bunch of schools - some are very selective some only select the top third.
Since there are only about 160 Grammars I cannot see where your 80% comes from. Prove your statement!

Fee-paying schools divide far more than these 160 do ... they also try to seduce teachers from state schools by offering £20 000+ perks
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by Muttley79
You accused my school of being part of the problem so YOU dragged me into this ..
Grammar schools are not a uniform bunch of schools - some are very selective some only select the top third.
Since there are only about 160 Grammars I cannot see where your 80% comes from. Prove your statement!
Fee-paying schools divide far more than these 160 do ... they also try to seduce teachers from state schools by offering £20 000+ perks

I am discussing a systemic problem, not what you do. I was not referring to a specific university or specific schools, and my 80% was notional, not literal, as ought to have been apparent from the context.

The systemic problem relates to the north-south divide and to general patterns of inequality in the UK. For example, it tends to be the case that more students gain admission to Oxford and Cambridge from the Home Counties than from the whole of the North of England, and the same is true as to other competitive universities.

Many of the entrants to those universities come from affluent areas, often in the south east, or in pockets of prosperity elsewhere. Most of those students didn't go to private schools. But most of them come from reasonably prosperous households and have attended good quality state schools or sixth form colleges which select on entry, or which require parental ability to buy more expensive than the local average houses in the catchment areas of sought-after schools.

To mention just two examples, Hills Road in Cambridge is an Oxbridge machine, and Camden School for Girls in London, a state school, has sometimes outperformed St Pauls' Girls, a well known academic hothouse in the private sector.

The socio-economic profiles of many students at the top ten or twenty universities in the UK tend to reflect moderate to high levels of parental affluence and reasonable life chances from an early age. Poorer students quite often go to universities of lower quality in or near their home towns.

Private schools are divisive. In many cases, private school attendance confers advantage. But if all private schools were closed or nationalised tomorrow, the state system wouldn't suddenly be better funded, and systemic inequality would remain within the state system. Successive governments since 1979 have allowed or encouraged this to happen.

I add that nationalising private schools isn't on anyone's policy list, IIRC, not least because of the large payments which would have to be made to owners of the schools for loss of their businesses. The schools which are genuine charities, owned by trusts and not by limited companies, could possibly, however, be nationalised at lower cost, returning them to the public purposes for which they were founded in the late medieval and early modern periods. Until a few decades ago, some schools existed between the state and private systems, but they became private schools after direct grant was abolished.

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