the VERY high bar set to apply to med school is going to lead to a 'purge' of doctors
Do you agree with this?
As a student applying to study medicine myself, I deeply and personally think this is going to be our future. What started as a system to select the most gifted future doctors has become a money-driven process, with costly application fees, preparation courses, and exams filtering out capable candidates. This shift risks creating a future shortage of doctors by prioritising privilege over potential.
I'm doing a research into this topic and would like your inputs. If possible, could I also have some advice on how I can move forwards with my research?(eg, similar debates or professional I could talk to).
edit: I'm not here to whine about how hard it is to get into medical school in the UK - it's prestigious and I know success doesn't come without hard work and challenges. I'm here rather to wonder if it actually needs to be THIS challenging, especially for 16-18 year olds who have barely started living their lives
As a student applying to study medicine myself, I deeply and personally think this is going to be our future. What started as a system to select the most gifted future doctors has become a money-driven process, with costly application fees, preparation courses, and exams filtering out capable candidates. This shift risks creating a future shortage of doctors by prioritising privilege over potential.
I'm doing a research into this topic and would like your inputs. If possible, could I also have some advice on how I can move forwards with my research?(eg, similar debates or professional I could talk to).
edit: I'm not here to whine about how hard it is to get into medical school in the UK - it's prestigious and I know success doesn't come without hard work and challenges. I'm here rather to wonder if it actually needs to be THIS challenging, especially for 16-18 year olds who have barely started living their lives
(edited 9 months ago)
Original post by Abhi136
Do you agree with this?
As a student applying to study medicine myself, I deeply and personally think this is going to be our future. What started as a system to select the most gifted future doctors has become a money-driven process, with costly application fees, preparation courses, and exams filtering out capable candidates. This shift risks creating a future shortage of doctors by prioritising privilege over potential.
I'm doing a research into this topic and would like your inputs. If possible, could I also have some advice on how I can move forwards with my research?(eg, similar debates or professional I could talk to).
As a student applying to study medicine myself, I deeply and personally think this is going to be our future. What started as a system to select the most gifted future doctors has become a money-driven process, with costly application fees, preparation courses, and exams filtering out capable candidates. This shift risks creating a future shortage of doctors by prioritising privilege over potential.
I'm doing a research into this topic and would like your inputs. If possible, could I also have some advice on how I can move forwards with my research?(eg, similar debates or professional I could talk to).
When you list one of the issues as being "exams filtering out capable candidates", do you mean the grade requirements are too high? For any course, there will a minimum standard, in terms of grades and subjects, which a candidate will need to have to be successful on the course. Anything above that is just supply and demand. The reasons grades are so high is primarily because there are so many candidates applying. Universities need some way to filter candidates, which doesn't involve the time-consuming and costly process of interviewing all of them. If a university has far more applicants that places, what criteria are you proposing be used to short-list them?
Also, when you say, "the VERY high bar set to apply to med school is going to lead to a 'purge' of doctors", what do you mean by "purge". The conventional meaning of the word is as a synonym for "removal". Is that you meant? The high entry bar will lead to the removal of existing doctors? Or do you mean that there'll be a shortage of doctors (despite the numbers applying)? Or that we'll have the wrong type of doctors? Or something else?
Reply 2
What 'very high bar' are you referring to?
It's always been competitive and the number of places at school is limited. And for a very good reason- there just isn't enough capacity to train medical students in healthcare settings. That's the main bottleneck.
If there is going to be a 'purge' of doctors it will be due to many of them effectively being out of work post F2 and basically emigrating or effectively leaving the profession. A proportion of graduates never continue in clinical practice, either because they find the nature of NHS style healthcare doesn't suit them or because they planned to work in an associated industry in a non-clinical role anyway.
Truth be told, being a doctor in the UK isn't the same as it was 30 years ago. They are less respected by the public and their pay at all levels isn't spectacular when you take inflation and the real-world cost of living into account. A salaried GP now (assuming they can find a job in the first place) will be offered a contract of around 70K in the main. Given the hours and workload involved (and the nature of the work itself), it's not that stellar given the responsibility involved and also relative to what people are able to earn in a wide range of other industries.
Also, there isn't a shortage of doctors in the sense you might think there is. This is a myth and I'd urge all current medical students to actually understand the present circumstances right now because it will become abundantly clear post-graduation and you need to be well aware of the circumstances today.
It's always been competitive and the number of places at school is limited. And for a very good reason- there just isn't enough capacity to train medical students in healthcare settings. That's the main bottleneck.
If there is going to be a 'purge' of doctors it will be due to many of them effectively being out of work post F2 and basically emigrating or effectively leaving the profession. A proportion of graduates never continue in clinical practice, either because they find the nature of NHS style healthcare doesn't suit them or because they planned to work in an associated industry in a non-clinical role anyway.
Truth be told, being a doctor in the UK isn't the same as it was 30 years ago. They are less respected by the public and their pay at all levels isn't spectacular when you take inflation and the real-world cost of living into account. A salaried GP now (assuming they can find a job in the first place) will be offered a contract of around 70K in the main. Given the hours and workload involved (and the nature of the work itself), it's not that stellar given the responsibility involved and also relative to what people are able to earn in a wide range of other industries.
Also, there isn't a shortage of doctors in the sense you might think there is. This is a myth and I'd urge all current medical students to actually understand the present circumstances right now because it will become abundantly clear post-graduation and you need to be well aware of the circumstances today.
Reply 3
20
I'm not sure what you mean by 'a high bar' - with the increase in the number of Med places and increasing outreach/WP entry schemes, accessing a Medicine degree, especially for educationally disadvantaged applicants, has been made far easier than it was 10 years ago. Whilst there has been an increase in the number of Med applicants, that is expected, and it doesn't mean that they are all competitive applications.
And btw, there is no correlation between 'spent ££ on course and coaching' etc and 'got into Med School' - in my experience, those who have not been coached give far more honest/genuine MMI responses and are far more likely to reflect the values that Med Schools are actually looking for.
One of the greatest impacts on NHS doctor numbers is, and always has been, lucrative work abroad or outside the NHS. This is not a reflection of 'privilege' but a reality of medical careers.
And btw, there is no correlation between 'spent ££ on course and coaching' etc and 'got into Med School' - in my experience, those who have not been coached give far more honest/genuine MMI responses and are far more likely to reflect the values that Med Schools are actually looking for.
One of the greatest impacts on NHS doctor numbers is, and always has been, lucrative work abroad or outside the NHS. This is not a reflection of 'privilege' but a reality of medical careers.
Reply 4
Abhi136
OP
2
Original post by DataVenia
When you list one of the issues as being "exams filtering out capable candidates", do you mean the grade requirements are too high? For any course, there will a minimum standard, in terms of grades and subjects, which a candidate will need to have to be successful on the course. Anything above that is just supply and demand. The reasons grades are so high is primarily because there are so many candidates applying. Universities need some way to filter candidates, which doesn't involve the time-consuming and costly process of interviewing all of them. If a university has far more applicants that places, what criteria are you proposing be used to short-list them?
Also, when you say, "the VERY high bar set to apply to med school is going to lead to a 'purge' of doctors", what do you mean by "purge". The conventional meaning of the word is as a synonym for "removal". Is that you meant? The high entry bar will lead to the removal of existing doctors? Or do you mean that there'll be a shortage of doctors (despite the numbers applying)? Or that we'll have the wrong type of doctors? Or something else?
Also, when you say, "the VERY high bar set to apply to med school is going to lead to a 'purge' of doctors", what do you mean by "purge". The conventional meaning of the word is as a synonym for "removal". Is that you meant? The high entry bar will lead to the removal of existing doctors? Or do you mean that there'll be a shortage of doctors (despite the numbers applying)? Or that we'll have the wrong type of doctors? Or something else?
To clarify, when I mentioned "exams filtering out capable candidates," I was referring to the possibility that strict grade requirements might not always be the best measure of a candidate's potential to become a good doctor. While it's true that grades are a convenient way to shortlist candidates when there are more applicants than available spots, this system can sometimes exclude individuals who might excel in practical and interpersonal aspects of medicine but may not necessarily have the highest academic scores.
As for the term "purge," I understand that it usually means "removal," and that may not have been the best word choice. What I meant is that the high entry standards could contribute to a shortage of doctors in the future. Even though many people apply, if the process focuses too much on academic scores, it could result in fewer candidates being accepted into medical school, which might not match the growing demand for healthcare professionals. This could ultimately lead to a situation where we have fewer doctors than needed, affecting healthcare delivery.
Another issue might be that the emphasis on high academic grades could mean we are overlooking other important qualities needed in doctors, like empathy, communication, and resilience. So, one of the challenges is finding a way to balance academic standards with the skills and attributes that make someone well-suited for the medical profession.
Reply 5
Abhi136
OP
2
Original post by ErasistratusV
What 'very high bar' are you referring to?
It's always been competitive and the number of places at school is limited. And for a very good reason- there just isn't enough capacity to train medical students in healthcare settings. That's the main bottleneck.
If there is going to be a 'purge' of doctors it will be due to many of them effectively being out of work post F2 and basically emigrating or effectively leaving the profession. A proportion of graduates never continue in clinical practice, either because they find the nature of NHS style healthcare doesn't suit them or because they planned to work in an associated industry in a non-clinical role anyway.
Truth be told, being a doctor in the UK isn't the same as it was 30 years ago. They are less respected by the public and their pay at all levels isn't spectacular when you take inflation and the real-world cost of living into account. A salaried GP now (assuming they can find a job in the first place) will be offered a contract of around 70K in the main. Given the hours and workload involved (and the nature of the work itself), it's not that stellar given the responsibility involved and also relative to what people are able to earn in a wide range of other industries.
Also, there isn't a shortage of doctors in the sense you might think there is. This is a myth and I'd urge all current medical students to actually understand the present circumstances right now because it will become abundantly clear post-graduation and you need to be well aware of the circumstances today.
It's always been competitive and the number of places at school is limited. And for a very good reason- there just isn't enough capacity to train medical students in healthcare settings. That's the main bottleneck.
If there is going to be a 'purge' of doctors it will be due to many of them effectively being out of work post F2 and basically emigrating or effectively leaving the profession. A proportion of graduates never continue in clinical practice, either because they find the nature of NHS style healthcare doesn't suit them or because they planned to work in an associated industry in a non-clinical role anyway.
Truth be told, being a doctor in the UK isn't the same as it was 30 years ago. They are less respected by the public and their pay at all levels isn't spectacular when you take inflation and the real-world cost of living into account. A salaried GP now (assuming they can find a job in the first place) will be offered a contract of around 70K in the main. Given the hours and workload involved (and the nature of the work itself), it's not that stellar given the responsibility involved and also relative to what people are able to earn in a wide range of other industries.
Also, there isn't a shortage of doctors in the sense you might think there is. This is a myth and I'd urge all current medical students to actually understand the present circumstances right now because it will become abundantly clear post-graduation and you need to be well aware of the circumstances today.
I understand your point, and I want to clarify that the focus isn't on criticizing doctors but rather on the system that has created these challenges. Your post actually highlights this well. Many people work incredibly hard, achieving high exam marks and paying significant fees, only to face a career that can be overwhelming, underpaid, and exhausting.
The reality is that if doctors themselves are burnt out, overworked, and underappreciated, it's going to affect the quality of care they can provide. This isn't just about the individuals but about the effectiveness of the healthcare system as a whole. If the system continues this way, it could discourage future generations from genuinely wanting to study medicine. Instead of seeing it as a calling to help others, they might be drawn to it more for the prestige, which isn't ideal for patient care or the profession.
The problem isn't just about getting into medical school; it's about making sure the career remains sustainable, rewarding, and genuinely attractive to those who have a passion for helping others.
Reply 6
Abhi136
OP
2
Original post by McGinger
I'm not sure what you mean by 'a high bar' - with the increase in the number of Med places and increasing outreach/WP entry schemes, accessing a Medicine degree, especially for educationally disadvantaged applicants, has been made far easier than it was 10 years ago. Whilst there has been an increase in the number of Med applicants, that is expected, and it doesn't mean that they are all competitive applications.
And btw, there is no correlation between 'spent ££ on course and coaching' etc and 'got into Med School' - in my experience, those who have not been coached give far more honest/genuine MMI responses and are far more likely to reflect the values that Med Schools are actually looking for.
One of the greatest impacts on NHS doctor numbers is, and always has been, lucrative work abroad or outside the NHS. This is not a reflection of 'privilege' but a reality of medical careers.
And btw, there is no correlation between 'spent ££ on course and coaching' etc and 'got into Med School' - in my experience, those who have not been coached give far more honest/genuine MMI responses and are far more likely to reflect the values that Med Schools are actually looking for.
One of the greatest impacts on NHS doctor numbers is, and always has been, lucrative work abroad or outside the NHS. This is not a reflection of 'privilege' but a reality of medical careers.
I see where you're coming from, and I appreciate the insight. I want to clarify that when I mentioned a "high bar," I was referring to the overall combination of factors—academic expectations, financial costs, and the competitive nature of the process—that can still pose challenges, even with increased outreach and widening participation (WP) initiatives. While it's true that access has improved, especially for educationally disadvantaged applicants, there are still hurdles that might deter some from considering a career in medicine.
Regarding the correlation between spending on courses/coaching and successful applications, I agree that being coached doesn’t necessarily guarantee acceptance. In fact, as you've noted, candidates who are uncoached can often present more authentic, honest responses that align better with what medical schools are looking for. This further emphasizes that focusing solely on polished, rehearsed answers or intensive prep courses isn't the key to success.
You also raise a valid point about doctors seeking work abroad or outside the NHS. This isn't just about privilege but reflects the broader career realities—doctors often seek better opportunities where pay, work-life balance, and career progression might be more favorable. This trend has significant implications for healthcare in the UK, as it can lead to gaps in the workforce, even if there isn't a shortage of people applying to study medicine.
Additionally, the very high cost of medical school is another factor that filters out less fortunate candidates. This financial barrier means that even capable and motivated students might be discouraged from applying because they can't afford the fees, especially when considering the debt they would accumulate. There's a concern that the field is attracting people who are more interested in the social prestige and financial rewards associated with being a doctor rather than those who genuinely want to help others. This shift in motivation could impact the quality of care patients receive.
Moreover, international students face even higher fees, often triple the cost for domestic students, with no clear justification. This further restricts diversity in the field, as it becomes difficult for talented individuals from abroad to pursue medical studies, even if they bring valuable skills and perspectives. This combination of high academic requirements, expensive tuition, and skewed motivations could contribute to a future where we have fewer doctors than needed, or perhaps not the right kind of doctors in terms of empathy and patient care.
Reply 7
Original post by Abhi136
I understand your point, and I want to clarify that the focus isn't on criticizing doctors but rather on the system that has created these challenges. Your post actually highlights this well. Many people work incredibly hard, achieving high exam marks and paying significant fees, only to face a career that can be overwhelming, underpaid, and exhausting.
The reality is that if doctors themselves are burnt out, overworked, and underappreciated, it's going to affect the quality of care they can provide. This isn't just about the individuals but about the effectiveness of the healthcare system as a whole. If the system continues this way, it could discourage future generations from genuinely wanting to study medicine. Instead of seeing it as a calling to help others, they might be drawn to it more for the prestige, which isn't ideal for patient care or the profession.
The problem isn't just about getting into medical school; it's about making sure the career remains sustainable, rewarding, and genuinely attractive to those who have a passion for helping others.
The reality is that if doctors themselves are burnt out, overworked, and underappreciated, it's going to affect the quality of care they can provide. This isn't just about the individuals but about the effectiveness of the healthcare system as a whole. If the system continues this way, it could discourage future generations from genuinely wanting to study medicine. Instead of seeing it as a calling to help others, they might be drawn to it more for the prestige, which isn't ideal for patient care or the profession.
The problem isn't just about getting into medical school; it's about making sure the career remains sustainable, rewarding, and genuinely attractive to those who have a passion for helping others.
The issue you highlight is true of many professions and vocations today though. Medicine is not alone in this respect. Society is changing, for better or worse- I cannot say. Young people entering the workplace have very different expectations of and attitudes to people who entered 20 or 40 or 60 years prior. I can only guess as to why this is but no, working in healthcare is not for everyone. You work shifts that are antisocial and unpopular. Weekends, nights, bank holidays, festive periods, New year's eve- someone has to work. That includes nurses, HCAs, porters, radiographers, the people in the pathology labs. Every little cog has to be in place and turning literally every hour of the day.
It is no secret that a lot of people graduate and enter the workplace in healthcare and then give it up some time later. Nursing and midwifery, in particular, I would say are utterly demanding and uncompromising in terms of their workload.
Young people today seem to want to earn impressive salaries and don't seem attracted to significant areas in the economy. I meet and speak with large numbers of members of the public on a near daily basis and few of them seem attracted to working in healthcare. I do it because I genuinely get a personal kick out of helping people in need and I feel like I'm good at this stuff. But not everyone is wired the same way. I know people who wouldn't stick a single day in that environment or they would be deterred by the first instance of problems arising. That's ok though.
Regarding the high bar and high costs. I'd argue that University in the UK is already becoming a rich-man's game but compared to training abroad, it is likely amongst the cheapest courses in the world. You will not graduate as a doctor in the USA for much less than 1 million US dollars, nor will they even consider accepting you without a pretty serious science degree to begin with. Their examinations, especially post-graduate ones, are extremely tough, too.
And whilst I broadly agree with your sentiment regarding the vocation being a sustainable one, the UK government and health education England don't seem as worried. They are happy to allow in any number of international graduates and they have an endless pool of new F1s and F2s entering the system nationally anyway. If every doctor left the UK to work abroad post F2 it would not necessarily impact the workforce as much as you might think. The UK has historically produced about 7000-9000 new doctors a year. This is not a very big number when you consider how many new doctors are being minted in various countries internationally.
Reply 8
15
Original post by Abhi136
Do you agree with this?
As a student applying to study medicine myself, I deeply and personally think this is going to be our future. What started as a system to select the most gifted future doctors has become a money-driven process, with costly application fees, preparation courses, and exams filtering out capable candidates. This shift risks creating a future shortage of doctors by prioritising privilege over potential.
I'm doing a research into this topic and would like your inputs. If possible, could I also have some advice on how I can move forwards with my research?(eg, similar debates or professional I could talk to).
edit: I'm not here to whine about how hard it is to get into medical school in the UK - it's prestigious and I know success doesn't come without hard work and challenges. I'm here rather to wonder if it actually needs to be THIS challenging, especially for 16-18 year olds who have barely started living their lives
As a student applying to study medicine myself, I deeply and personally think this is going to be our future. What started as a system to select the most gifted future doctors has become a money-driven process, with costly application fees, preparation courses, and exams filtering out capable candidates. This shift risks creating a future shortage of doctors by prioritising privilege over potential.
I'm doing a research into this topic and would like your inputs. If possible, could I also have some advice on how I can move forwards with my research?(eg, similar debates or professional I could talk to).
edit: I'm not here to whine about how hard it is to get into medical school in the UK - it's prestigious and I know success doesn't come without hard work and challenges. I'm here rather to wonder if it actually needs to be THIS challenging, especially for 16-18 year olds who have barely started living their lives
Perhaps a test should be added that identifies psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists?
Reply 9
Original post by Physician
Perhaps a test should be added that identifies psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists?
Great idea. Do you propose we test all existing medical professionals in the UK first of all then?
Reply 10
15
Original post by ErasistratusV
Great idea. Do you propose we test all existing medical professionals in the UK first of all then?
Why not, if UK employment law allows for it? It might identify the next Harold Shipman, or the next corrupt GP who committed malpractice to satisfy their sexual fantasies etc.
Reply 11
Original post by Physician
Why not, if UK employment law allows for it? It might identify the next Harold Shipman, or the next corrupt GP who committed malpractice to satisfy their sexual fantasies etc.
You seem very confident that you personally wouldn't have any of these traits if you were subjected to the same tests?
The kind of crimes you highlight are exceedingly rare to the point that it's rather unusual to be so fixated on them. To subject huge numbers of people to rather invasive tests I suspect borders on the unethical in of itself.
Reply 12
15
Original post by ErasistratusV
You seem very confident that you personally wouldn't have any of these traits if you were subjected to the same tests?
The kind of crimes you highlight are exceedingly rare to the point that it's rather unusual to be so fixated on them. To subject huge numbers of people to rather invasive tests I suspect borders on the unethical in of itself.
The kind of crimes you highlight are exceedingly rare to the point that it's rather unusual to be so fixated on them. To subject huge numbers of people to rather invasive tests I suspect borders on the unethical in of itself.
I would fully support such tests, and they should last more that an hour, multiple choice, online. For your information l have done a similar test before through my employer, and l didn't come through as a narcissist tyrant, but as a thoughtful, logical person. Though that doesn't mean the World as it is just a test.
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