Uk worst place for JR doctors after med school and fy2

Unlike US and other countries, UK leaves thousands of junior Doctors trapped in the system with no chance of gaining specialization. After fighting hard to gain admission, 5 to 6 years of stressful medical school education and 2 years as foundation doctor, majority of junior doctors fail to gain admission to any specialty.

Meanwhile their US counterparts and others from the Caribbean are matched to various specialties after medical schools.

This is very frustrating and stressful for these doctors who are left to work untold hours for above minimum wage in NHS

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 1

ash210

I agree with everything you said but what I don't understand is why so many of us still want to become a doctor, there are so many other professions less stressful and rewarding (money wise).

Reply 2

artful_lounger

Universities Forum Helper

Original post by YZARK32

What data is there that the majority don't get admitted to any specialty training program? That would be interesting to see.

Reply 3

YZARK32

One has a better chance of getting into OxBridge medicine with DDD in A Levels than in some specialties.
There are less specialty vacancies than applications for all Specialties.

SpecialtyApplicationsPostsCompetition ratioSpecialtyACCS Emergency Medicine CT1/ST1Applications1803Posts361Competition ratio4.99SpecialtyAnaesthetics CT1Applications2604Posts545Competition ratio4.78SpecialtyCardiothoracic Surgery ST1Applications298Posts11Competition ratio27.09SpecialtyClinical Radiology ST1Applications3068Posts350Competition ratio8.77SpecialtyCommunity Sexual and Reproductive Health ST1Applications272Posts8Competition ratio34.00SpecialtyCore Psychiatry Training CT1Applications2610Posts524Competition ratio4.98SpecialtyCore Surgical Training CT1Applications2539Posts609Competition ratio4.17SpecialtyGeneral Practice ST1Applications10514Posts3935Competition ratio2.67SpecialtyHistopathology ST1Applications380Posts109Competition ratio3.49SpecialtyInternal Medicine Training CT1Applications4406Posts1670Competition ratio2.64SpecialtyNeurosurgery ST1Applications255Posts20Competition ratio12.75SpecialtyNeurosurgery ST2Applications39Posts2Competition ratio19.50SpecialtyNuclear Medicine ST3Applications17Posts8Competition ratio2.13SpecialtyObstetrics and Gynaecology ST1Applications1347Posts312Competition ratio4.32SpecialtyOphthalmology ST1Applications971Posts98Competition ratio9.91SpecialtyOphthalmology ST3Applications73Posts21Competition ratio3.48SpecialtyOral and Maxillo Facial Surgery ST1Applications38Posts12Competition ratio3.17SpecialtyOral and Maxillo Facial Surgery ST3Applications22Posts30Competition ratio0.73SpecialtyPaediatrics ST1Applications1231Posts506Competition ratio2.43SpecialtyPublic Health Medicine ST1Applications1258Posts124Competition ratio10.15SpecialtyThoracic Surgery ST4Applications28Posts10Competition ratio2.80
Round 2SpecialtyApplicationsPostsCompetition ratioSpecialtyAcute Internal Medicine ST4Applications335Posts82Competition ratio4.09SpecialtyAllergy ST3Applications35Posts2Competition ratio17.50SpecialtyAnaesthetics ST4Applications640Posts399Competition ratio1.60SpecialtyAudiovestibular Medicine ST3Applications6Posts5Competition ratio1.20SpecialtyCardiology ST4Applications433Posts140Competition ratio3.09SpecialtyChemical Pathology ST3Applications12Posts7Competition ratio1.71SpecialtyClinical Genetics ST3Applications62Posts23Competition ratio2.70SpecialtyClinical Neurophysiology ST3Applications50Posts8Competition ratio6.25SpecialtyClinical Oncology ST3Applications171Posts136Competition ratio1.26SpecialtyClinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics ST4Applications25Posts12Competition ratio2.08SpecialtyCombined Infection Training ST3Applications160Posts40Competition ratio4.00SpecialtyCombined Infection Training ST4Applications88Posts21Competition ratio4.19SpecialtyDermatology ST3Applications241Posts32Competition ratio7.53SpecialtyDiagnostic Neuropathology ST3Applications2Posts11Competition ratio0.18SpecialtyEmergency Medicine (ACCS) ST3Applications28Posts17Competition ratio1.65SpecialtyEmergency Medicine (DRE-EM) ST3Applications241Posts22Competition ratio10.95SpecialtyEmergency Medicine ST4Applications131Posts103Competition ratio1.27SpecialtyEndocrinology and Diabetes Mellitus ST4Applications282Posts84Competition ratio3.36SpecialtyGastroenterology ST4Applications309Posts111Competition ratio2.78SpecialtyGeneral (Internal) Medicine ST4Applications103Posts29Competition ratio3.55SpecialtyGeneral Surgery ST3Applications515Posts162Competition ratio3.18SpecialtyGenitourinary Medicine ST4Applications23Posts49Competition ratio0.47SpecialtyGeriatric Medicine ST4Applications266Posts148Competition ratio1.80SpecialtyHaematology ST3Applications199Posts92Competition ratio2.16SpecialtyImmunology ST3Applications42Posts7Competition ratio6.00SpecialtyIntensive Care Medicine ST3Applications392Posts178Competition ratio2.20SpecialtyMedical Oncology ST3Applications187Posts92Competition ratio2.03SpecialtyMedical Ophthalmology ST3Applications15Posts5Competition ratio3.00SpecialtyNeurology ST4Applications147Posts62Competition ratio2.37SpecialtyObstetrics and Gynaecology ST3Applications345Posts88Competition ratio3.92SpecialtyOccupational Medicine ST3Applications50Posts7Competition ratio7.14SpecialtyOtolaryngology ST3Applications152Posts60Competition ratio2.53SpecialtyPaediatric and Perinatal Pathology ST3Applications6Posts7Competition ratio0.86SpecialtyPaediatric Cardiology ST4Applications58Posts11Competition ratio5.27SpecialtyPaediatric Surgery ST3Applications74Posts18Competition ratio4.11SpecialtyPaediatrics ST3Applications340Posts57Competition ratio5.96SpecialtyPaediatrics ST4Applications361Posts71Competition ratio5.08SpecialtyPalliative Medicine ST4Applications69Posts60Competition ratio1.15SpecialtyPlastic Surgery ST3Applications220Posts52Competition ratio4.23SpecialtyPsychiatry (all specialties) ST4Applications478Posts393Competition ratio1.22SpecialtyRehabilitation Medicine ST3Applications41Posts14Competition ratio2.93SpecialtyRenal Medicine ST4Applications163Posts52Competition ratio3.13SpecialtyRespiratory Medicine ST4Applications343Posts109Competition ratio3.15SpecialtyRheumatology ST4Applications193Posts44Competition ratio4.39SpecialtySport and Exercise Medicine ST3Applications62Posts9Competition ratio6.89SpecialtyTrauma and Orthopaedic Surgery ST3Applications483Posts160Competition ratio3.02SpecialtyUrology ST3Applications252Posts82Competition ratio3.07SpecialtyVascular Surgery ST3Applications191Posts42Competition ratio4.55

Reply 4

greg tony

Original post by YZARK32

One has a better chance of getting into OxBridge medicine with DDD in A Levels than in some specialties.
There are less specialty vacancies than applications for all Specialties.
SpecialtyApplicationsPostsCompetition ratioSpecialtyACCS Emergency Medicine CT1/ST1Applications1803Posts361Competition ratio4.99SpecialtyAnaesthetics CT1Applications2604Posts545Competition ratio4.78SpecialtyCardiothoracic Surgery ST1Applications298Posts11Competition ratio27.09SpecialtyClinical Radiology ST1Applications3068Posts350Competition ratio8.77SpecialtyCommunity Sexual and Reproductive Health ST1Applications272Posts8Competition ratio34.00SpecialtyCore Psychiatry Training CT1Applications2610Posts524Competition ratio4.98SpecialtyCore Surgical Training CT1Applications2539Posts609Competition ratio4.17SpecialtyGeneral Practice ST1Applications10514Posts3935Competition ratio2.67SpecialtyHistopathology ST1Applications380Posts109Competition ratio3.49SpecialtyInternal Medicine Training CT1Applications4406Posts1670Competition ratio2.64SpecialtyNeurosurgery ST1Applications255Posts20Competition ratio12.75SpecialtyNeurosurgery ST2Applications39Posts2Competition ratio19.50SpecialtyNuclear Medicine ST3Applications17Posts8Competition ratio2.13SpecialtyObstetrics and Gynaecology ST1Applications1347Posts312Competition ratio4.32SpecialtyOphthalmology ST1Applications971Posts98Competition ratio9.91SpecialtyOphthalmology ST3Applications73Posts21Competition ratio3.48SpecialtyOral and Maxillo Facial Surgery ST1Applications38Posts12Competition ratio3.17SpecialtyOral and Maxillo Facial Surgery ST3Applications22Posts30Competition ratio0.73SpecialtyPaediatrics ST1Applications1231Posts506Competition ratio2.43SpecialtyPublic Health Medicine ST1Applications1258Posts124Competition ratio10.15SpecialtyThoracic Surgery ST4Applications28Posts10Competition ratio2.80
Round 2SpecialtyApplicationsPostsCompetition ratioSpecialtyAcute Internal Medicine ST4Applications335Posts82Competition ratio4.09SpecialtyAllergy ST3Applications35Posts2Competition ratio17.50SpecialtyAnaesthetics ST4Applications640Posts399Competition ratio1.60SpecialtyAudiovestibular Medicine ST3Applications6Posts5Competition ratio1.20SpecialtyCardiology ST4Applications433Posts140Competition ratio3.09SpecialtyChemical Pathology ST3Applications12Posts7Competition ratio1.71SpecialtyClinical Genetics ST3Applications62Posts23Competition ratio2.70SpecialtyClinical Neurophysiology ST3Applications50Posts8Competition ratio6.25SpecialtyClinical Oncology ST3Applications171Posts136Competition ratio1.26SpecialtyClinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics ST4Applications25Posts12Competition ratio2.08SpecialtyCombined Infection Training ST3Applications160Posts40Competition ratio4.00SpecialtyCombined Infection Training ST4Applications88Posts21Competition ratio4.19SpecialtyDermatology ST3Applications241Posts32Competition ratio7.53SpecialtyDiagnostic Neuropathology ST3Applications2Posts11Competition ratio0.18SpecialtyEmergency Medicine (ACCS) ST3Applications28Posts17Competition ratio1.65SpecialtyEmergency Medicine (DRE-EM) ST3Applications241Posts22Competition ratio10.95SpecialtyEmergency Medicine ST4Applications131Posts103Competition ratio1.27SpecialtyEndocrinology and Diabetes Mellitus ST4Applications282Posts84Competition ratio3.36SpecialtyGastroenterology ST4Applications309Posts111Competition ratio2.78SpecialtyGeneral (Internal) Medicine ST4Applications103Posts29Competition ratio3.55SpecialtyGeneral Surgery ST3Applications515Posts162Competition ratio3.18SpecialtyGenitourinary Medicine ST4Applications23Posts49Competition ratio0.47SpecialtyGeriatric Medicine ST4Applications266Posts148Competition ratio1.80SpecialtyHaematology ST3Applications199Posts92Competition ratio2.16SpecialtyImmunology ST3Applications42Posts7Competition ratio6.00SpecialtyIntensive Care Medicine ST3Applications392Posts178Competition ratio2.20SpecialtyMedical Oncology ST3Applications187Posts92Competition ratio2.03SpecialtyMedical Ophthalmology ST3Applications15Posts5Competition ratio3.00SpecialtyNeurology ST4Applications147Posts62Competition ratio2.37SpecialtyObstetrics and Gynaecology ST3Applications345Posts88Competition ratio3.92SpecialtyOccupational Medicine ST3Applications50Posts7Competition ratio7.14SpecialtyOtolaryngology ST3Applications152Posts60Competition ratio2.53SpecialtyPaediatric and Perinatal Pathology ST3Applications6Posts7Competition ratio0.86SpecialtyPaediatric Cardiology ST4Applications58Posts11Competition ratio5.27SpecialtyPaediatric Surgery ST3Applications74Posts18Competition ratio4.11SpecialtyPaediatrics ST3Applications340Posts57Competition ratio5.96SpecialtyPaediatrics ST4Applications361Posts71Competition ratio5.08SpecialtyPalliative Medicine ST4Applications69Posts60Competition ratio1.15SpecialtyPlastic Surgery ST3Applications220Posts52Competition ratio4.23SpecialtyPsychiatry (all specialties) ST4Applications478Posts393Competition ratio1.22SpecialtyRehabilitation Medicine ST3Applications41Posts14Competition ratio2.93SpecialtyRenal Medicine ST4Applications163Posts52Competition ratio3.13SpecialtyRespiratory Medicine ST4Applications343Posts109Competition ratio3.15SpecialtyRheumatology ST4Applications193Posts44Competition ratio4.39SpecialtySport and Exercise Medicine ST3Applications62Posts9Competition ratio6.89SpecialtyTrauma and Orthopaedic Surgery ST3Applications483Posts160Competition ratio3.02SpecialtyUrology ST3Applications252Posts82Competition ratio3.07SpecialtyVascular Surgery ST3Applications191Posts42Competition ratio4.55

Hate to break it to you, but for most other people in nearly every other career they would kill for these odds. They may seem high but id wager far better than what faces most job applicants. I have often gone for one job against 100 other applicants and anything below 50:1 is great ratio for me (im in Psychology, and this includes specialisation roles).

I am no expert on medicine but i would be surprised if people didnt apply for more than one specialisation. So the odds may be better than they seem also.

Greg

Reply 5

YZARK32

Original post by greg tony

Hate to break it to you, but for most other people in nearly every other career they would kill for these odds. They may seem high but id wager far better than what faces most job applicants. I have often gone for one job against 100 other applicants and anything below 50:1 is great ratio for me (im in Psychology, and this includes specialisation roles).
I am no expert on medicine but i would be surprised if people didnt apply for more than one specialisation. So the odds may be better than they seem also.
Greg

Unlike regular jobs, there is critical shortages of doctors within the NHS. Doctors are not just working to make a living. They are literally saving lives. Every year hundreds of UK trained doctors leave for other destinations such as Australia, New Zealand and Middle East for better treatment. UK citizens endure unbearable wait period for appointments to see doctor. Hence one would expect the prioritization of junior doctors who stay by ensuring there are enough vacancies for specialties to incentivize them to stay and benefit UK citizens. I'm not talking about the oversubscribing of vacancies such as surgery. Im talking about the lack of vacancies for even less demanding specialties

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 6

YZARK32

You're right about the "other professions being less stressful and more rewarding" than medicine. That's because unlike other profession, medicine is both a profession and a vocation. While I can't speak to the motivation of all those who opt for the stressful and sometimes less rewarding medical profession, historically those who chose to study medicine have had a "sense of calling or a strong desire" to help sick and vulnerable people. That's why many still undertake some may see as a thankless profession where after 5 years of highly demanding curricular, 2 years of foundation and an average of £60,000 of student loans debt (UK Jr Doctors) or over £200k in debt for international fee paying UK educated junior doctors, they still remain to help patients for while making less than Cosco regular employees with or without a failed GCSE.
In spite of their sacrifices, they're frustrated by the lack of enough vacancies for Specialties to enable them to become Specialists or Consultants in order to make enough money to pay off their debts.

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 7

Dunnig Kruger

The DDRB recommended salary range for General Practitioners in England is £73,114 to £110,330.

https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/gp-pay/salaried-gp-pay-ranges

How much sympathy do you think you will get from the general public if you are unable to become a specialist and end up as a general practitioner instead?

From your point of view, if you become a General Practitioner in the UK, you'd have about 85,000 reasons to console yourself.

I personally find it ridiculous when people come out with the rhetoric that doctors save lives and therefore deserve some extra special status.
Farmers stop us from dying from hunger. Do they deserve extra special status?
Water workers stop us from dying from thirst or cholera.
Builders stop us from dying from exposure or buildings collapsing on us.

And doctors aren't even that good at saving lives. They focus primarily on fixing issues that have arisen. More focus on preventing the issues occurring in the first place would lead to a lot more lives being saved, as well as a lot more quality of life being saved.

Reply 8

YZARK32

Original post by Dunnig Kruger

The DDRB recommended salary range for General Practitioners in England is £73,114 to £110,330.
https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/gp-pay/salaried-gp-pay-ranges
How much sympathy do you think you will get from the general public if you are unable to become a specialist and end up as a general practitioner instead?
From your point of view, if you become a General Practitioner in the UK, you'd have about 85,000 reasons to console yourself.
I personally find it ridiculous when people come out with the rhetoric that doctors save lives and therefore deserve some extra special status.
Farmers stop us from dying from hunger. Do they deserve extra special status?
Water workers stop us from dying from thirst or cholera.
Builders stop us from dying from exposure or buildings collapsing on us.
And doctors aren't even that good at saving lives. They focus primarily on fixing issues that have arisen. More focus on preventing the issues occurring in the first place would lead to a lot more lives being saved, as well as a lot more quality of life being saved.

I'm not sure if you're speaking out of either sincere ignorance of the Medical profession or a sheer disdain for doctors. FYI General Practice is a Specialty. Getting into GP specialty is also very competitive. Junior Doctors don't automatically become a GP if they don't get their preferred specialty. This is why so many Junior doctors remain trapped as junior doctors some making less than the cleaner, in some cases making life and death decisions under tremendous pressure and risking their own safety during pandemic and other emergencies.
Yes farmers, police officers, cleaners and every profession are essential to life just as doctors are.
However there are certain professions that are classified as "Essential;" and Physicians happen to be one of them.
My point is they need to increase the number of vacancies for all specialties junior doctors who wish to specialize could achieve their dream and serve the community in a better way while getting return for their tremendous investment in student loans and 5-6 years of medical school plus numerous years at foundation doctors. We could follow the US model of matching medical school graduates with their specialties upon graduation instead of the confusing system of limited vacancies for all the specialties. Unless this happens we'd lose more UK trained junior doctors to p-laces like Australia, New Zealand and the Middle East. Meanwhile the waiting period for see the doctor in UK continue to grow exponentially.

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 9

Dunnig Kruger

So you tell me. Having passed through Medical School, including the Junior Doctoring stage, what do you think will happen to you, should fail to be accepted into a speciality?

Do you think you will become unemployed, even though you want to be employed?
Or do you think you'll remain as a junior doctor for the rest of your working life?

You say that certain professions are classified. Classified as what? And by whom?

What if the number of medical schools in the UK were to be significantly increased? So that it became about as easy to start studying medicine as it is to start studying Mechanical Engineering. 10 years down the line we'd see an easement to waiting periods.

And what if the medical profession started putting a lot more focus on prevention? We'd see a significant reduction in waiting periods.

Or what if citizens were given the option to opt out of the NHS system, with corresponding reductions to their tax bills, and those citizens having to pay for private medical care. With this being combined with a lot more mainstream advice on prevention.