Is medicine worth it??

Hi I’m a year 12 and I’m currently deciding if it’s worth it to pursue medicine or should I aim for something else.
I would love to do medicine but I’m afraid that it would be too much work or that I would regret it especially with how overworked the nhs is right now.

If there are any medical students/ junior doctors who could tell me what studying medicine is like and if you could choose would you do it again I would really appreciate it 🫶

edit: for more information i take bio chem english lit and philosophy. I feel like i enjoy both science and essay subjects and would excel in a career in either field.
I don’t want to do a research degree (e.g biomedicine, pharmacology etc) mostly because i want to have a career that interacts with people.
A lot of my teachers said that law or dentistry would be a good option but i have my own doubts on those too (dentistry being very competitive to get into and having to work awful hours)
In the end of the day I know all careers have their pros and cons but I really don’t want to making a decision that I will regret in years to come!

(edited 4 weeks ago)

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Reply 1

AsBr2008

Original post by alalal102

Currently in the exact same position as you; I've been looking at diagnostic radiography recently as that also seems interesting. Hopefully we can get some responses here.

Reply 2

unsure-student

literally in the exact same position as you lol. Not a single person has recommended that I should do medicine, in person or online, and every doctor (online at least) is just straight up warning students to not pursue medicine..

Reply 3

AsBr2008

Original post by unsure-student

Yeah I've also not been recommended to do medicine. I was told on Reddit that for the first 10 years after doing your degree, you can't actually choose where you work so you're always moving between cities (not sure how true it is). When I did some work experience at an opticians, one of the patients was a GP and told me not to go into medicine (didn't have the time to ask for more info though).

Reply 4

ErasistratusV

The question you pose basically boils down to two relatively straight forward questions to which you really do need to be answering 'yes' without question.

Do you enjoy talking to or otherwise interacting with people and helping them in the context of their health and within the environment of healthcare?

Do you have a very real and tangible interest in the inner workings of the human body and yearn to unlock and understand the mysteries of these and spend the bulk of your adult life continuing this journey and learning ever more?

You can be a person who says 'yes' to question 1 or question 2 without being a doctor. If you think only point 1 applies then you can work in other roles that allow you to do this. If you only answer yes to point 2 then you can study anatomy, physiology, radiography, biomedical science and so on or work in research without ever having to have a patient facing role.

My advice is thus quite simple. Be sure that you really do want to be working in a job that answers yes to both question 1 and question 2 because you will be doing plenty of this. If you have any doubt on either of these questions, then categorically do not do it.

By committing to medicine you are signing up for a few things with absolute certainty.
Firstly, significant debt and a very predefined path for your life for at least the next 6-8 years. There is no award for the halfway mark or getting by year 1. You have to commit to this totally.
Secondly, this is going to involve significant debt and sacrifices on your time and other personal commitments throughout this period. And it won't end at the end of F2, either. I know surgical trainees who are almost nomadic and commute sizeable distances because it facilitates their surgical training. They also had significant challenges when it came to obtaining a training place, too and not all of them have a lot of choice in where they work. Again, whilst you are in training you might be being paid more but there are still further exams and time commitment to obtaining that CCT.

Which all brings me back to question 1 and question 2. You really do need to love these things a lot. If like so many of us you do, then happy days, it is the best job in the world by far. But if you don't....

(edited 1 month ago)

Reply 5

Swansea Students

Official Rep

Hey @alalal102

I feel I can speak on this a bit having been in the same place that you are now - it was and is wild to me how nobody you speak to says enthusiastically that you should do a medical degree. (I had a couple of health conditions when I was 16 so got to ask the question to a LOT of medics at different points in their careers, and the most positive of the dozen or so responses I got was that "med school was fun" - and then they promptly took a year off with stress!)

And the truth is, a lot of what you hear is right - depending on the route you choose, you lose a lot of personal freedom and the hours can be brutal; the course is really difficult, as is the job itself; and whilst the pay isn't awful, especially as you advance through your career, med school can have a lot of hidden costs like travel, and there are definitely less stressful ways to make a lot more money if that's the way you're so inclined.

I also can't see myself ever doing anything else.

The clinical exposure I've had so far both inside and outside of med school has been perhaps the most rewarding experience of my life so far - both in primary and secondary care, you get to make an impact in people's lives in a way that's both huge and very tangible. I've really enjoyed being able to take my scientific knowledge and apply it in a way that helps the person right in front of me.

@ErasistratusV gives some really, really good advice (here and in general!) - if you're a fan of people, if you're minded towards biology, and you're comfortable with pressure, it can be a great and rewarding career - but it's also not your only option. And it's also okay to not be sure just yet! You have a little while before applying, and starting the early steps now will put you in good stead for any path you choose if you decide medicine is not for you.

My one big piece of advice to help you decide - see what medicine is like for yourself. See if you can pick up some shadowing or clinical experience - that's what ended up sealing the deal for me. If you do end up applying, it'll also be really useful when it comes to interviews - and having some exposure to what medical practice is actually like is probably the single best way to show you've thought this through and you're committed when it comes to selections. And if you don't love it - you've saved yourself a lot of time and heartache.

It's a really big decision to make, especially so early on right out of school (which is why I didn't haha - I took a Pathways course first to give me a little more time to decide + give myself the flexibility to step out and still have a degree) but you're considering things well in advance which is a great sign. If you have any questions about what med school is like, feel free to ask - but hopefully that helps a bit :smile:

James, Medicine (Graduate Entry) @ Swansea + Medical Biochemistry

Reply 6

Democracy

Original post by alalal102

It is a lot of work yes but working in the right specialty can make a huge difference to job satisfaction and enjoyment. As someone who took a longer time than average to finding the right specialty, I can certainly attest to this.

Job satisfaction as a doctor these days is very much a long term investment made with a degree of blind optimism and hope. I didn't have many immediate rewards early on in the first few years of my career. There's plenty wrong with the NHS and the fractured nature of most training programmes can worsen feelings of self-doubt and uncertainty. However, being a doctor does not mean you have to be limited to the NHS forever - there is a difference between the profession and the employer.

I guess it depends how badly you want to be a doctor? I haven't ever found anything else which has stimulated my interest and personality in the same way, so I guess this is it for me. Other doctors may feel differently however, and that's also fine.

(edited 4 weeks ago)

Reply 7

girl_in_black

I'm pretty far into my training and in a specialty I like, and it can be rewarding at times, but it is a lot of hard work and I have found the rewarding aspects of the job have gotten less the more senior I have gotten (not sure if I'm just desensitised to them now or if it's because I spend less time meaningfully with patients than I did when I was a junior and that's the bit of the job I find most rewarding).

I think I would do it again if I was 17 back in the year I applied, but I don't know that I would do it now. When I applied, the tuition fees were a fraction of what they are now and you had a guaranteed job at the end of medical school with a good salary and clear career progression so you were rewarded for your hard work. That just isn't the case any more - you come out of medical school with insane amounts of debt, and we are now at a stage where medical students are no longer guaranteed a place in the foundation programme, and if the do get through the foundation programme, they are competing on equal footing with people everywhere else in the world for specialty training numbers because local graduates do not get priority. The pay goes far less than it did 15-20 years ago. You no longer get hospital accommodation in most parts of the UK so not only are you working 12-13 hour shifts, but you are spending additional hours trying to get to your shifts (my commute for most of my training has been 1-1.5 hours each way; was up at 2 hours each way for a period during the train strikes). Yes, the rota patterns are better than they were even when I graduated 9 years ago but the work is harder, the better shift patterns come with less continuity of care which creates multiple additional issues, and you feel less part of a team because you never work with the same people.

I'm not saying I've had bad time of it myself, I've mostly enjoyed my time as a doctor, but this career is no longer the deal it was when I was applying to medical school and future generations of doctors are going to have a much harder time of things.

Reply 8

unsure-student

Original post by girl_in_black

I'm pretty far into my training and in a specialty I like, and it can be rewarding at times, but it is a lot of hard work and I have found the rewarding aspects of the job have gotten less the more senior I have gotten (not sure if I'm just desensitised to them now or if it's because I spend less time meaningfully with patients than I did when I was a junior and that's the bit of the job I find most rewarding).
I think I would do it again if I was 17 back in the year I applied, but I don't know that I would do it now. When I applied, the tuition fees were a fraction of what they are now and you had a guaranteed job at the end of medical school with a good salary and clear career progression so you were rewarded for your hard work. That just isn't the case any more - you come out of medical school with insane amounts of debt, and we are now at a stage where medical students are no longer guaranteed a place in the foundation programme, and if the do get through the foundation programme, they are competing on equal footing with people everywhere else in the world for specialty training numbers because local graduates do not get priority. The pay goes far less than it did 15-20 years ago. You no longer get hospital accommodation in most parts of the UK so not only are you working 12-13 hour shifts, but you are spending additional hours trying to get to your shifts (my commute for most of my training has been 1-1.5 hours each way; was up at 2 hours each way for a period during the train strikes). Yes, the rota patterns are better than they were even when I graduated 9 years ago but the work is harder, the better shift patterns come with less continuity of care which creates multiple additional issues, and you feel less part of a team because you never work with the same people.
I'm not saying I've had bad time of it myself, I've mostly enjoyed my time as a doctor, but this career is no longer the deal it was when I was applying to medical school and future generations of doctors are going to have a much harder time of things.

Do you think theres a possible chance of improvement in the future, say in the next 5-7 years, with labour's new policies on increasing medical places? ( asking as a current Year 12).

Reply 9

ErasistratusV

Original post by unsure-student

Do you think theres a possible chance of improvement in the future, say in the next 5-7 years, with labour's new policies on increasing medical places? ( asking as a current Year 12).

What difference would an increase in the number of medical school places make?

There is no shortage of doctors. This is a myth. The UK doesn't need to train thousands more doctors. People intent on a career in medicine really do need to be aware of the realities of the situation now.

Reply 10

Democracy

Original post by ErasistratusV

What difference would an increase in the number of medical school places make?
There is no shortage of doctors. This is a myth. The UK doesn't need to train thousands more doctors. People intent on a career in medicine really do need to be aware of the realities of the situation now.

Several things can be true at once:

1) There is a shortage of doctors (and medical students) for our present and future healthcare needs. This is actually an issue in most parts of the world and is only going to get worse.

2) Simply increasing the number of medical students doesn't fix this by itself. A leaky bucket needs its leak fixed not just more water poured in.

3) Training bottlenecks and lack of incentives in shortage specialties are really not helping matters.

4) Placing IMGs on a completely level playing field with UK graduates is short sighted thinking in terms of generating a stable homegrown workforce.

5) ARRS and other dubious strategies to incentivise the hiring of PAs and the like over doctors are a false economy.

6) Bizarre rules around pensions and taxes have seen senior doctors reduce their hours in order to not have to pay to go to work.

7) The situation is a shambles which has been decades in the making and is going to take a long time to sort out (if anyone is minded to do so). One can only hope that the slowly resolving situation with resident doctors' strikes will lead to some improvements, but I won't hold my breath!

Reply 11

unsure-student

Do IMGs have to complete a test before practicing as a doctor in the UK? (I'm not sure what you mean by level playing field).

Reply 12

Anonymous #1

Are you or were you ever unhappy with your pay as a doctor? I understand it is a relatively challenging profession, but I have heard mixed things from various doctors about their salaries?

Reply 13

unsure-student

Original post by ErasistratusV

What difference would an increase in the number of medical school places make?
There is no shortage of doctors. This is a myth. The UK doesn't need to train thousands more doctors. People intent on a career in medicine really do need to be aware of the realities of the situation now.

It does seem that there is shortage of doctors in the UK, and this will probably be the case with an ageing population. The main reason for these shortages seems to be the training bottlenecks. I think ultimately, whether medicine is a stable career to go to in the future, depends on how government policies tackle this shortage. If they recruit more qualified IMGs and decrease the number of training posts for junior doctors, then it isn't going to be great for UK doctors. It seems they're heading in that direction anyways, by favouring PAs more now. But hopefully they'll do the opposite - increase the number of training posts for UK doctors.

As a current Year 12 student, I have no idea what to do anymore. I'm doing biology, chemistry and mathematics. There's not many other careers I want to go into, but from what you are saying, the career basically has the same job security as a career in art, which doesn't make the career sound very appealing at all. Factor in the 5/6 years of university. What other career would you have gone into, if not medicine?

Reply 14

unsure-student

Original post by Anonymous

Are you or were you ever unhappy with your pay as a doctor? I understand it is a relatively challenging profession, but I have heard mixed things from various doctors about their salaries?

I'm not a doctor, but I think quite a lot of doctors are, or at least were, unhappy with their happy (seeing how many of them went on strike in the past year).

Reply 15

Democracy

Original post by unsure-student

Do IMGs have to complete a test before practicing as a doctor in the UK? (I'm not sure what you mean by level playing field).

"One critical development potentially exacerbating this competition is the removal of the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT) in January 2021 [2]. This significant policy change has led to an increase in the number of international medical graduates (IMGs) seeking NHS specialty training roles [3–8]. It is noteworthy that the UK, in contrast to the majority of other countries, does not prioritise its own graduates for these positions. Instead, it treats applications from IMGs and UK-trained graduates equally. This approach, and the absence of this test means that competition for these positions will likely continue to rise".

https://academic.oup.com/pmj/article/100/1184/361/7513585

The PLAB doesn't really make a difference here.

Reply 16

girl_in_black

Original post by unsure-student

Do you think theres a possible chance of improvement in the future, say in the next 5-7 years, with labour's new policies on increasing medical places? ( asking as a current Year 12).

increasing medical school places is only going to cause more issues if specialty training numbers are not being increased. so no.

(edited 3 weeks ago)

Reply 17

ErasistratusV

I don't believe the government will massively increase the number of medical school places. We are constantly reminded that it costs the government 1000's of pounds to train each student, so if anything there is an argument for reducing the number of medical school places nationally rather than increasing them. There is currently significant bottlenecks occurring at the post F2 level where people cannot obtain a training place and so remain at F2+/SHO level until they obtain a training place. Some people have voiced concerns that they face working at SHO level forever. I suppose if you are happy with working in a trust grade job on a set salary and that fits with your life then that is AOK but I'd point out that this will not have been the dream of most medical students judging by the conversations I have had with others. I believe this will lead to people simply emigrating or leaving the profession altogether in time which rather flies in the face of being told it costs £100,000+ to train doctors from scratch. Given a typical SHO salary and the length of time to reach that point if your considerations were purely financial then training as a physician associate would make more sense, not withstanding the fact people will have completed a 5, 6 (or 7) year degree programme and invested over £100,000 in their education for a salary that isn't actually that impressive these days.

Some years prior to the present situation if you did not obtain a training place it wasn't a very big deal, one could work as an F3 or F4 or beyond and have a pick of many locum shifts all over the country. You could certainly earn a respectable salary if you were prepared to work as and when you were needed and working in whatever department needed you. I have spoken with several doctors who did exactly this. Some of them worked nearly exclusively in London and managed to earn near 6 figure salaries and so were able to secure mortgages and buy a house in this way. This situation has now changed and there is not the same availability of locum shifts nor are the rates as attractive.

I believe it is only a matter of time before enough BMA members become unhappy with this situation and the union has to press the government for change.

Reply 18

ErasistratusV

Original post by Anonymous

Are you or were you ever unhappy with your pay as a doctor? I understand it is a relatively challenging profession, but I have heard mixed things from various doctors about their salaries?

It very much depends on your background and expectations and your real-world 'wants' in terms of where you want your career to go.

Example A then- if you are from a working class background and no one in even your extended family ever entered University, much less completed a degree or entered what would conventionally be considered a professional vocation, then medicine may appeal quite strongly for a variety of reasons. Firstly, it does have reasonable job security, it is (or certainly can be) widely respected amongst family or your community and has a reasonable salary in the grand scheme of things.

Example B though, if you are from a relatively well off family, your brother went to law school and your sister is an aeronautical engineer and there is the expectation that you too will have a serious salary by the age of 30, then by some people's measure, medicine isn't in that same place any longer. Dentistry maybe still does with the potential for private practice? Or maybe you wished you were an investment banker working 80 hours a week in the city?

Reply 19

ErasistratusV

Original post by Democracy

Several things can be true at once:
1) There is a shortage of doctors (and medical students) for our present and future healthcare needs. This is actually an issue in most parts of the world and is only going to get worse.
2) Simply increasing the number of medical students doesn't fix this by itself. A leaky bucket needs its leak fixed not just more water poured in.
3) Training bottlenecks and lack of incentives in shortage specialties are really not helping matters.
4) Placing IMGs on a completely level playing field with UK graduates is short sighted thinking in terms of generating a stable homegrown workforce.
5) ARRS and other dubious strategies to incentivise the hiring of PAs and the like over doctors are a false economy.
6) Bizarre rules around pensions and taxes have seen senior doctors reduce their hours in order to not have to pay to go to work.
7) The situation is a shambles which has been decades in the making and is going to take a long time to sort out (if anyone is minded to do so). One can only hope that the slowly resolving situation with resident doctors' strikes will lead to some improvements, but I won't hold my breath!

If I am the UK government, why would I bother to pay for hundreds more medical students to be trained if I can just import ready-trained international medical graduates instead?

I get more patients been seen by more doctors and the cost of training them is unchanged.
This is an issue the BMA is going to have to confront eventually.