Is Oxford toxic?
Seeing this in the news. Do people stuyding at Oxford think this is true?
An inquiry into the case revealed 'a concerning culture of social ostracism', or 'cancel culture,' among students which involved 'the exclusion of students from social circles based on allegations of misconduct, often without due process or a fair hearing,' said the Coroner.Students could 'rush to judgement' without knowing all the facts and 'pile on' to the cancelled student, and begin to shun them. The practice was found to be 'established and normalised', and existed not just at Oxford, but in the education sector more widely.
An inquiry into the case revealed 'a concerning culture of social ostracism', or 'cancel culture,' among students which involved 'the exclusion of students from social circles based on allegations of misconduct, often without due process or a fair hearing,' said the Coroner.Students could 'rush to judgement' without knowing all the facts and 'pile on' to the cancelled student, and begin to shun them. The practice was found to be 'established and normalised', and existed not just at Oxford, but in the education sector more widely.
Original post by GodAtum
Seeing this in the news. Do people stuyding at Oxford think this is true?
I think that this is a problem present at Oxford and at many other universities. Students at several universities have adopted narrow belief systems which are illiberal and intolerant, whilst claiming, often falsely, to be "progressive". Some students have succumbed to a form of groupthink in which only certain beliefs and opinions are acceptable. Part of this phenomenon is the abandonment of concepts such as the presumption of innocence, with the result that, if someone is accused of some form of misconduct, he or she is assumed to be guilty. Enlightenment values such as freedom of speech are no longer prized.
The alleged misconduct might relate to sexual behaviour. In some other cases the allegation might be as trivial as expressing an opinion which does not accord with the groupthink. The groupthink may treat speech as violence (this is of course nonsense). There is much hypocrisy in this, as the groupthinkers are willing to threaten violence and be physically menacing when they disapprove of something. See for example the behaviour of some students when Kathleen Stock spoke at the Oxford Union.
There have been alarming displays of violent anti-semitism at American universities and the UK isn't immune from this. I know an academic at the LSE who has to be escorted to her room by security guards because she is Jewish.
The roots of all this lie with a group of academic charlatans who have created whole disciplines of grievance studies, and encourage students to view everything in terms of power relationships, with oppressors and victims. Much of this originates from the deranged ramblings of Michel Foucault, a man with serious mental health issues who became influential in academic thought.
What's to be done? The solution must, I suggest, be a return to the fundamental values of enquiry, debate, and civil discourse which underpinned universities since they stopped being theological colleges and became places of scholarship at the end of the middle ages.
(edited 3 weeks ago)
Here is the Independent's report, which (not surprisingly) is more thorough and careful than the Mail's version.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/call-to-review-cancel-culture-in-universities-after-ostracised-oxford-student-takes-own-life/ar-AA1tKv6X
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/call-to-review-cancel-culture-in-universities-after-ostracised-oxford-student-takes-own-life/ar-AA1tKv6X
Original post by Stiffy Byng
I think that this is a problem present at Oxford and at many other universities. Students at several universities have adopted narrow belief systems which are illiberal and intolerant, whilst claiming, often falsely, to be "progressive". Some students have succumbed to a form of groupthink in which only certain beliefs and opinions are acceptable. Part of this phenomenon is the abandonment of concepts such as the presumption of innocence, with the result that, if someone is accused of some form of misconduct, he or she is assumed to be guilty. Enlightenment values such as freedom of speech are no longer prized.
The alleged misconduct might relate to sexual behaviour. In some other cases the allegation might be as trivial as expressing an opinion which does not accord with the groupthink. The groupthink may treat speech as violence (this is of course nonsense). There is much hypocrisy in this, as the groupthinkers are willing to threaten violence and be physically menacing when they disapprove of something. See for example the behaviour of some students when Kathleen Stock spoke at the Oxford Union.
There have been alarming displays of violent anti-semitism at American universities and the UK isn't immune from this. I know an academic at the LSE who has to be escorted to her room by security guards because she is Jewish.
The roots of all this lie with a group of academic charlatans who have created whole disciplines of grievance studies, and encourage students to view everything in terms of power relationships, with oppressors and victims. Much of this originates from the deranged ramblings of Michel Foucault, a man with serious mental health issues who became influential in academic thought.
What's to be done? The solution must, I suggest, be a return to the fundamental values of enquiry, debate, and civil discourse which underpinned universities since they stopped being theological colleges and became places of scholarship at the end of the middle ages.
The alleged misconduct might relate to sexual behaviour. In some other cases the allegation might be as trivial as expressing an opinion which does not accord with the groupthink. The groupthink may treat speech as violence (this is of course nonsense). There is much hypocrisy in this, as the groupthinkers are willing to threaten violence and be physically menacing when they disapprove of something. See for example the behaviour of some students when Kathleen Stock spoke at the Oxford Union.
There have been alarming displays of violent anti-semitism at American universities and the UK isn't immune from this. I know an academic at the LSE who has to be escorted to her room by security guards because she is Jewish.
The roots of all this lie with a group of academic charlatans who have created whole disciplines of grievance studies, and encourage students to view everything in terms of power relationships, with oppressors and victims. Much of this originates from the deranged ramblings of Michel Foucault, a man with serious mental health issues who became influential in academic thought.
What's to be done? The solution must, I suggest, be a return to the fundamental values of enquiry, debate, and civil discourse which underpinned universities since they stopped being theological colleges and became places of scholarship at the end of the middle ages.
Harvard
Yale
Princeton
MIT
Notre Dame
Brown
Dartmouth
Bowdoin
Amherst
Washington and Lee
Or even Cambridge University instead of Oxford University? 😧
(edited 3 weeks ago)
Don't you ever read a newspaper? The problem is even worse in the Ivy League and just the same at Cambridge.
The fish rots from the head. Some of the worst ideas in recent history (critical race theory, queer theory, gender ideology) have taken root in the best universities, not the worst.
The fish rots from the head. Some of the worst ideas in recent history (critical race theory, queer theory, gender ideology) have taken root in the best universities, not the worst.
(edited 3 weeks ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
Don't you ever read a newspaper? The problem is even worse in the Ivy League and just the same at Cambridge.
The fish rots from the head. Some of the worst ideas in recent history (critical race theory, queer theory, gender ideology) have taken root in the best universities, not the worst.
The fish rots from the head. Some of the worst ideas in recent history (critical race theory, queer theory, gender ideology) have taken root in the best universities, not the worst.
I will happily apply to just the 'finest' English universities: Oxford, LSE, UCL, KCL and SOAS for Law. 🙂
Also, I will appear on the covers of the prospectus for wherever I finally end up...
(edited 3 weeks ago)
Original post by thegeek888
I do read the Economist, Wall Street Journal and Daily Telegraph often and to a lesser extent browse for interesting articles in The Independent, The Guardian, The Observer, The New York Times, The Daily Mail, as they're included as part of the "London Libraries Consortium" membership of the "Press Reader App" with an "active" library card. 😉 lol
I will happily apply to just the 'finest' English universities: Oxford, LSE, UCL, KCL and SOAS for Law. 🙂
Also, I will appear on the covers of the prospectus for wherever I finally end up...
I will happily apply to just the 'finest' English universities: Oxford, LSE, UCL, KCL and SOAS for Law. 🙂
Also, I will appear on the covers of the prospectus for wherever I finally end up...
I think I remember you from that absolutely hilarious Oxford optional modules poll thread.
Original post by thegeek888
I do read the Economist, Wall Street Journal and Daily Telegraph often and to a lesser extent browse for interesting articles in The Independent, The Guardian, The Observer, The New York Times, The Daily Mail, as they're included as part of the "London Libraries Consortium" membership of the "Press Reader App" with an "active" library card. 😉 lol
I will happily apply to just the 'finest' English universities: Oxford, LSE, UCL, KCL and SOAS for Law. 🙂
Also, I will appear on the covers of the prospectus for wherever I finally end up...
I will happily apply to just the 'finest' English universities: Oxford, LSE, UCL, KCL and SOAS for Law. 🙂
Also, I will appear on the covers of the prospectus for wherever I finally end up...
All that reading and you still missed the big scandals about Harvard etc last year. Harvard had unwisely chosen as its President an academic whose entire career has been spent in grievance studies. When faced with overt anti-semitism and open advocacy for terrorism amongst Harvard students, she did nothing. She came a cropper when questioned about this by a Senate committee. She is now the ex-President of Harvard.
Similar shenanigans have occurred at various other famous American universities.
In the UK, many of the big universities have stood by while students have engaged in Salem or Stalin like exercises in ideological purification. Creditably, however, Birmingham and Nottingham went to the courts to retake control of their campuses, which had been taken over by pro-terrorist encampments which made Jewish students fearful of entering ther own universities. UCL eventually did the same.
No it isn't, and criticising someone for behaving inappropriately isn't toxic.
Short answer elitism and tradition in the UK is what makes everything toxic.
Note what the coroner stated was:
“Of course, it is certainly possible that such a culture influenced the actions of Alexander’s peers in forming the judgements that they did; it is also possible that Alexander felt that – because of this culture – there was no way of getting back into the social group that obviously meant so much to him, once he had been excluded.
“What I cannot say is that this was probable. Nor, on the balance of probabilities, that this culture materially contributed to Alexander’s distress and his fateful decision on the morning of the 15 January.”
“Of course, it is certainly possible that such a culture influenced the actions of Alexander’s peers in forming the judgements that they did; it is also possible that Alexander felt that – because of this culture – there was no way of getting back into the social group that obviously meant so much to him, once he had been excluded.
“What I cannot say is that this was probable. Nor, on the balance of probabilities, that this culture materially contributed to Alexander’s distress and his fateful decision on the morning of the 15 January.”
Original post by GodAtum
Seeing this in the news. Do people stuyding at Oxford think this is true?
I read this story and it was heart-breaking.
Social ostracism happens at university but i think it is present in social circles across society even at workplaces and other communities.
The problem is that there is a presumption of guilt based on “feelings” that triggers an instant reaction within the social group that isolates the individual. If the individual is one who is dependent on that social circle, that could be disastrous.
The case in the story is a serious one because it is alleged sexual misbehaviour but there are other cases that are more minor and follow the same approach that often includes group bullying, pile on and termination of contact.
I was shocked that the woman in question did not find Alex’s sexual conduct to be serious enough to be reported to the authorities or the police but chose to spread such information across his friendship circle. To me, more needs to be done to stem this toxic culture.
Well said. The prioritisation of "feelings" over evidence is prevalent in many contexts. Levels of anxiety, and (sometimes self-diagnosed or declared) developmental or behavioural pathologies amongst young adults have gone off the scale. But if everyone is "Neurospicy", then nobody is.
Much of this must reflect cultural contagion, fuelled by really bad ideas in some academic circles, by social media, and probably by deficiencies in the educational systems associated with the ascendancy of Neo-Liberal politics in developed democracies since the late 1970s.
Much of this must reflect cultural contagion, fuelled by really bad ideas in some academic circles, by social media, and probably by deficiencies in the educational systems associated with the ascendancy of Neo-Liberal politics in developed democracies since the late 1970s.
(edited 3 weeks ago)
Original post by Plagioclase
No it isn't, and criticising someone for behaving inappropriately isn't toxic.
How do you know if a person has behaved inappropriately? Because someone told you on social media, or in a coffee shop? What about due process and the presumption of innocence?
Trahison des clercs*: "Students are taught to behave in this way by teachers and lecturers who view works of literature, art, music and the past itself as a resource to be tried, found guilty and cancelled to boost their own moral standing in the present..."
https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/11/12/the-cruelty-of-campus-cancel-culture/
https://www.cieo.org.uk/research/compassionate-pedagogy/
*"treason of the intellectuals"
https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/11/12/the-cruelty-of-campus-cancel-culture/
https://www.cieo.org.uk/research/compassionate-pedagogy/
*"treason of the intellectuals"
(edited 2 weeks ago)
Original post by Wired_1800
I read this story and it was heart-breaking.
Social ostracism happens at university but i think it is present in social circles across society even at workplaces and other communities.
The problem is that there is a presumption of guilt based on “feelings” that triggers an instant reaction within the social group that isolates the individual. If the individual is one who is dependent on that social circle, that could be disastrous.
The case in the story is a serious one because it is alleged sexual misbehaviour but there are other cases that are more minor and follow the same approach that often includes group bullying, pile on and termination of contact.
I was shocked that the woman in question did not find Alex’s sexual conduct to be serious enough to be reported to the authorities or the police but chose to spread such information across his friendship circle. To me, more needs to be done to stem this toxic culture.
Social ostracism happens at university but i think it is present in social circles across society even at workplaces and other communities.
The problem is that there is a presumption of guilt based on “feelings” that triggers an instant reaction within the social group that isolates the individual. If the individual is one who is dependent on that social circle, that could be disastrous.
The case in the story is a serious one because it is alleged sexual misbehaviour but there are other cases that are more minor and follow the same approach that often includes group bullying, pile on and termination of contact.
I was shocked that the woman in question did not find Alex’s sexual conduct to be serious enough to be reported to the authorities or the police but chose to spread such information across his friendship circle. To me, more needs to be done to stem this toxic culture.
The reason women do not go to the police or report such things is because either they are not believed or nothing is done.However it is difficult to comment on this case as we have no details of what was said.A pity people did not try to mediate instead of ostracizing though.
Original post by Scotney
The reason women do not go to the police or report such things is because either they are not believed or nothing is done.However it is difficult to comment on this case as we have no details of what was said.A pity people did not try to mediate instead of ostracizing though.
This connects nicely with an earlier thread on a similar topic.
I personally find it wrong for one to not raise the situation with the police or appropriate authorities but spread the same information within the friendship group. What was the lady expecting to happen by telling others? If they did not believe her, it would have seen as horrible. If they did, they could not continue as normal.
The legal system operates on the presumption of innocence and strict rules of evidence. Student censoriousness applies no such presumption or rules.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
The legal system operates on the presumption of innocence and strict rules of evidence. Student censoriousness applies no such presumption or rules.
Successful Prosecutions for rapes reported to the police stand at just over 1%.The legal system is not fit for purpose in this area.Not commenting on this specific case but why would a girl who has been assaulted go to the authorities?
Original post by Scotney
Successful Prosecutions for rapes reported to the police stand at just over 1%.The legal system is not fit for purpose in this area.Not commenting on this specific case but why would a girl who has been assaulted go to the authorities?
The criminal justice system is broken in many respects, not least because it operates on an annual budget of roughly forty five pence.
The police and CPS are, however, more disposed to believe complainants than they were some years ago. The conviction rate in cases prosecuted is about 58%. A prosecution doesn't start unless the CPS considers a conviction to be more likely than not.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rape-response-overhaul-delivers-progress
https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/cps-data-summary-quarter-1-2024-2025
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/sexualoffencesinenglandandwalesoverview/march2022
The point about Cancel Culture in universities is that all it takes is for an allegation to be made and guilt is immediately presumed within a social circle. The principle of "hear both sides" has been forgotten. It is not apparent that the complainant in the Corpus Christi case raised the matter with the college, which would have taken seriously any allegation of non-consensual sexual conduct.
The same one sided view of things extends to political debates amongst students. "Agree with us or shut up" is the mantra in many academic settings. The better approach is to hear what the other side says and debate ideas.
(edited 1 week ago)
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