Who should be given preference?
10
I have two questions:
1) Is it fair to argue that not all students at Oxford or Cambridge or other high-ranking universities are naturally gifted and that rather they are just hard-working students?
The reason why I ask is that I was shocked to hear from many Oxbridge students that they were not part of the “Gifted and Talented” programme when at school or that they were not always in the top sets for subjects and that their success came more so due to putting hours of effort in. By contrast, many students who were naturally clever and branded as “Gifted and Talented” burnt out and so ended up getting less good grades and not getting into a top university. Also, the students who worked hard often had tutoring and spent hours on homework whereas academic ability came more naturally to the latter group but because they burnt out they were not motivated to try.
2) Considering this, do you think that criteria for top university admissions should be based on natural ability or effort? Meaning, if you have two people: one who is naturally very smart and could do better than the other if they put as much effort in but does not put the effort in so underperforms or the other person who is naturally less smart but puts more effort in and only performs better than the first person because the first person does not try as hard, who should be given preference?
1) Is it fair to argue that not all students at Oxford or Cambridge or other high-ranking universities are naturally gifted and that rather they are just hard-working students?
The reason why I ask is that I was shocked to hear from many Oxbridge students that they were not part of the “Gifted and Talented” programme when at school or that they were not always in the top sets for subjects and that their success came more so due to putting hours of effort in. By contrast, many students who were naturally clever and branded as “Gifted and Talented” burnt out and so ended up getting less good grades and not getting into a top university. Also, the students who worked hard often had tutoring and spent hours on homework whereas academic ability came more naturally to the latter group but because they burnt out they were not motivated to try.
2) Considering this, do you think that criteria for top university admissions should be based on natural ability or effort? Meaning, if you have two people: one who is naturally very smart and could do better than the other if they put as much effort in but does not put the effort in so underperforms or the other person who is naturally less smart but puts more effort in and only performs better than the first person because the first person does not try as hard, who should be given preference?
Reply 1
These kind of things vary very much person to person. The admissions tutors are looking for people who would excel at studying there. If they recognise that, with the right motivation, the naturally smart student could do that, and see how they could give them that motivation they might pick them. If they recognise the hard work the other student puts in and thinks that they're intelligent enough to excel too they might pick them. I think its absolutely fair to argue point 1)
It's a very nuanced process and I think the variety of students there reflects that you can't make generalisations for point 2). I think it's reflected in the application process too. A hardworking student might have a very good personal statement and a solid entrance exam as well as perfect predicted grades but lack a good interview. The smart student might have an incredible interview but an alright personal statement, for example. (It also goes without saying but the best students are both)
It's a very nuanced process and I think the variety of students there reflects that you can't make generalisations for point 2). I think it's reflected in the application process too. A hardworking student might have a very good personal statement and a solid entrance exam as well as perfect predicted grades but lack a good interview. The smart student might have an incredible interview but an alright personal statement, for example. (It also goes without saying but the best students are both)
Reply 2
Original post
by m_040106I have two questions:
1) Is it fair to argue that not all students at Oxford or Cambridge or other high-ranking universities are naturally gifted and that rather they are just hard-working students?
The reason why I ask is that I was shocked to hear from many Oxbridge students that they were not part of the “Gifted and Talented” programme when at school or that they were not always in the top sets for subjects and that their success came more so due to putting hours of effort in. By contrast, many students who were naturally clever and branded as “Gifted and Talented” burnt out and so ended up getting less good grades and not getting into a top university. Also, the students who worked hard often had tutoring and spent hours on homework whereas academic ability came more naturally to the latter group but because they burnt out they were not motivated to try.
2) Considering this, do you think that criteria for top university admissions should be based on natural ability or effort? Meaning, if you have two people: one who is naturally very smart and could do better than the other if they put as much effort in but does not put the effort in so underperforms or the other person who is naturally less smart but puts more effort in and only performs better than the first person because the first person does not try as hard, who should be given preference?
1) Is it fair to argue that not all students at Oxford or Cambridge or other high-ranking universities are naturally gifted and that rather they are just hard-working students?
The reason why I ask is that I was shocked to hear from many Oxbridge students that they were not part of the “Gifted and Talented” programme when at school or that they were not always in the top sets for subjects and that their success came more so due to putting hours of effort in. By contrast, many students who were naturally clever and branded as “Gifted and Talented” burnt out and so ended up getting less good grades and not getting into a top university. Also, the students who worked hard often had tutoring and spent hours on homework whereas academic ability came more naturally to the latter group but because they burnt out they were not motivated to try.
2) Considering this, do you think that criteria for top university admissions should be based on natural ability or effort? Meaning, if you have two people: one who is naturally very smart and could do better than the other if they put as much effort in but does not put the effort in so underperforms or the other person who is naturally less smart but puts more effort in and only performs better than the first person because the first person does not try as hard, who should be given preference?
It is great to be naturally smart or gifted but if they dont put the effort in then what’s the point.
I’d rather have someone who is 70% smart but puts in 100% effort than another person who is 99% smart but puts in 70% effort.
To your point about Oxbridge and top unis, i think they are looking for a combination of smartness and effort. Studying at a top uni can be hard work, so there is a need to have students who are switched on, smart and put the work in.
Reply 3
How on Earth do you measure "natural smartness"?
All human abilities are learned. Education and environment are hugely important. The idea of natural smartness disregards the significance of nurture.
I wonder if this thread has a sub text. I would hazard a small bet on which of the two manufactured categories the OP puts him or her self into.
All human abilities are learned. Education and environment are hugely important. The idea of natural smartness disregards the significance of nurture.
I wonder if this thread has a sub text. I would hazard a small bet on which of the two manufactured categories the OP puts him or her self into.
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 4
Definitely the ones who work hard. IQ isn’t fixed.
Reply 5
10
Think they want someone who "thinks in the right way" - someone who is partially already bright and curious and teachble
Reply 6
It's worth bearing in mind that Gifted and Talented programmes can be somewhat flawed (like anything/everything in life!).
In my case, I was on my school's Gifted and Talented list for music. However, because of a test (CAT or some similar name, I forget. It was long ago now
) sat in the first six weeks of Year 7, that involved maths, I was not on my school's (London) borough-wide Gifted and Talented list. As such, I was proactively excluded from certain school opportunities that would have benefitted me and that I could have excelled in (and that my friends, who were on that borough-wide list, were given but didn't all do so well at).
Still bitter about it 20+ years later but didn't mean I wasn't worthy of my Oxford place
In my case, I was on my school's Gifted and Talented list for music. However, because of a test (CAT or some similar name, I forget. It was long ago now
) sat in the first six weeks of Year 7, that involved maths, I was not on my school's (London) borough-wide Gifted and Talented list. As such, I was proactively excluded from certain school opportunities that would have benefitted me and that I could have excelled in (and that my friends, who were on that borough-wide list, were given but didn't all do so well at). Still bitter about it 20+ years later but didn't mean I wasn't worthy of my Oxford place
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