Why Not MD or MBBS

6

What motivates students to apply for Nursing Degrees when in fact they can apply to Medical school directly after A level or BTEC. I. Some cases straight out of High School? I believe the prerequisites are nearly the same except for Organic Chemistry!

Reply 1

TSR Hippocrates

11

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Reply 2

artful_lounger

Universities Forum Helper

21

Original post

by mcmste1809

What motivates students to apply for Nursing Degrees when in fact they can apply to Medical school directly after A level or BTEC. I. Some cases straight out of High School? I believe the prerequisites are nearly the same except for Organic Chemistry!

Academic and subject requirement differences are one factor - medicine normally requires A-levels in two sciences (usually including at least one of bio/chem) and AAA or above. Nursing accepts a wider range of qualifications and backgrounds (also nursing I believe has some apprenticeship routes, which medicine hasn't had until very recently).

Also the professions are very different - nurses do fundamentally different things and, probably interact with patients in different ways, and have a different model of healthcare than doctors. Nursing isn't "second place medicine", it's a distinct health profession doing different things in a different way.

Reply 3

greg tony

17

Original post

by mcmste1809

What motivates students to apply for Nursing Degrees when in fact they can apply to Medical school directly after A level or BTEC. I. Some cases straight out of High School? I believe the prerequisites are nearly the same except for Organic Chemistry!

Because they are two different careers and while they share some similarities often require very different aptitudes and skillsets. Medicine is not everones ultimate goal, no matter what TSR posters may think and i think your belief is quite dismissive to nursing. Not every doctor could do a nursing role and vice versa.

Greg

Reply 4

mcmste1809

OP

6

Original post

by greg tony

Because they are two different careers and while they share some similarities often require very different aptitudes and skillsets. Medicine is not everones ultimate goal, no matter what TSR posters may think and i think your belief is quite dismissive to nursing. Not every doctor could do a nursing role and vice versa.
Greg

My intention is not to be dismissive. It is just that I have met Nurses whom complain that they do a large majority of the patient care and believe they have both clinical expertise and academic fortitude to study medicine.

Reply 5

Democracy

21

Original post

by mcmste1809

My intention is not to be dismissive. It is just that I have met Nurses whom complain that they do a large majority of the patient care and believe they have both clinical expertise and academic fortitude to study medicine.

Why don't you ask them? :wink:

A more serious answer might be: that's probably a small sample of nurses that you're looking at, some people are unhappy in their jobs, and the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with some people (these two groups sometimes overlap).

At the same time, many nurses do (or would) have the academic fortitude to study medicine (which is how former nurses end up successfully completing graduate entry medical degrees).

In all fairness, most nurses probably do have more direct interaction with inpatients than most doctors but that doesn't make what they do more important, or the work that doctors do less important in terms of the overall "patient journey".

Also, the pre-requisites are definitely not the same except for chemistry - have you seen the grade requirements for medicine?

Reply 6

mcmste1809

OP

6

Original post

by Democracy

Why don't you ask them? :wink:

A more serious answer might be: that's probably a small sample of nurses that you're looking at, some people are unhappy in their jobs, and the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with some people (these two groups sometimes overlap).
At the same time, many nurses do (or would) have the academic fortitude to study medicine (which is how former nurses end up successfully completing graduate entry medical degrees).
In all fairness, most nurses probably do have more direct interaction with inpatients than most doctors but that doesn't make what they do more important, or the work that doctors do less important in terms of the overall "patient journey".
Also, the pre-requisites are definitely not the same except for chemistry - have you seen the grade requirements for medicine?

That’s great insight, thank you .. from what I gather and correct me if I’m wrong, grade requirements are synonymous to each individual institution and there is no universal rubric.

Reply 7

Democracy

21

Original post

by mcmste1809

That’s great insight, thank you .. from what I gather and correct me if I’m wrong, grade requirements are synonymous to each individual institution and there is no universal rubric.

There aren't national entry requirements for medicine, nursing, etc - each university sets their own, but the GCSE and A level requirements for getting into medicine are still much higher than nursing across the board.

Reply 8

paub

12

Original post

by mcmste1809

My intention is not to be dismissive. It is just that I have met Nurses whom complain that they do a large majority of the patient care and believe they have both clinical expertise and academic fortitude to study medicine.

they do. our anps,enps are doing the roles of junior doctors. my wife is a band7 district nurse team leader. she can do differential diagnosis and prescribing. they are not doctors and most dont want to be. nursing is not a second best to medicine.

Reply 9

ErasistratusV

21

Nursing and medicine are two completely different jobs. They are almost not even interconnected in all honesty.

I'd also hesitantly disagree that any nurse practitioner is doing the work of a resident doctor. What nurse practitioners etc do is rather different. Doctors are scientists, first and foremost.

Reply 10

mcmste1809

OP

6

Original post

by ErasistratusV

Nursing and medicine are two completely different jobs. They are almost not even interconnected in all honesty.
I'd also hesitantly disagree that any nurse practitioner is doing the work of a resident doctor. What nurse practitioners etc do is rather different. Doctors are scientists, first and foremost.

If you read my original question what I’m saying is a Nursing degree is not to dissimilar from a pre-med degree as the pre-requisites are pretty much the same for med school as they are for Nursing. I personally know 3 former Nurse Practitioners whom have upgraded to become Doctors. The common reason being they stated they were doing much of the Doctors job without the accolades and pay.

Reply 11

ErasistratusV

21

Original post

by mcmste1809

If you read my original question what I’m saying is a Nursing degree is not to dissimilar from a pre-med degree as the pre-requisites are pretty much the same for med school as they are for Nursing. I personally know 3 former Nurse Practitioners whom have upgraded to become Doctors. The common reason being they stated they were doing much of the Doctors job without the accolades and pay.

I don't know what country or region you are referring to but the entry requirements for nursing and medicine in the UK are vastly different. They are two completely different roles and the respective courses are worlds apart- because they have to be. I'm not sure I would recommend people enter the study of medicine purely for the accolades or pay enhancement these days, either. Furthermore, what makes someone an ideal nursing candidate does not automatically make them an ideal candidate for medicine and vice versa.

What 'pre-med' degree are you referring to? Also, 'MD' is not generally used or referred to in the UK. Perhaps you are describing the situation in North America or similar.

Reply 12

mcmste1809

OP

6

Original post

by ErasistratusV

I don't know what country or region you are referring to but the entry requirements for nursing and medicine in the UK are vastly different. They are two completely different roles and the respective courses are worlds apart- because they have to be. I'm not sure I would recommend people enter the study of medicine purely for the accolades or pay enhancement these days, either. Furthermore, what makes someone an ideal nursing candidate does not automatically make them an ideal candidate for medicine and vice versa.
What 'pre-med' degree are you referring to? Also, 'MD' is not generally used or referred to in the UK. Perhaps you are describing the situation in North America or similar.

You sound angry !

Reply 13

ErasistratusV

21

Original post

by mcmste1809

You sound angry !

That is not how I interpret my post nor is it the spirit in which it was written.

Reply 14

Democracy

21

Original post

by ErasistratusV

Nursing and medicine are two completely different jobs. They are almost not even interconnected in all honesty.
I'd also hesitantly disagree that any nurse practitioner is doing the work of a resident doctor. What nurse practitioners etc do is rather different. Doctors are scientists, first and foremost.

Why hesitantly? You're correct: they are not doing the work of resident doctors. You either practise medicine or you don't. Piecemeal or cherry picked differential diagnosis is a nonsense.

The thing I would disagree with is about doctors being scientists. I am not a scientist. I have a BSc but that's not my medical degree. I make use of principles of applied science and evidence based medicine, along with other skills and techniques (some of which aren't based in the scientific method or even firmly evidence based) to help my patients.

(edited 1 year ago)

Reply 15

ErasistratusV

21

Original post

by Democracy

Why hesitantly? You're correct: they are not doing the work of resident doctors. You either practise medicine or you don't. Piecemeal or cherry picked differential diagnosis is a nonsense.
The thing I would disagree with is about doctors being scientists. I am not a scientist. I have a BSc but that's not my medical degree. I make use of principles of applied science and evidence based medicine, along with other skills and techniques (some of which aren't based in the scientific method or even firmly evidence based) to help my patients.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that to be honest. Several times I have observed experienced doctors who, having encountered a problem to be solved, would revert to first principles in order to solve it, if that makes any sense?

Basically this is emulating exactly how much of the world of experimental or research science works- at least in my experience.

Reply 16

Georgia_xxxxxx

7

Original post

by mcmste1809

What motivates students to apply for Nursing Degrees when in fact they can apply to Medical school directly after A level or BTEC. I. Some cases straight out of High School? I believe the prerequisites are nearly the same except for Organic Chemistry!

Honestly there are a range of reasons.

1.

Nursing courses have lower academic requirements (I’ve seen people get in with D’s) whereas medicine usually has quite high requirements therefore a lot of people studying nursing wouldn’t pass the requirements to study medicine. Usually BTECs aren’t suitable to get into medicine with. (Usually need Science A-level)

2.

Nursing and Medicine are two different careers and passions. Nurses like more individual care. However some nurses do go on to study medicine at graduate level.

3.

Social inequalities: even though times have changed medicine, foundation years, speciality programme is still very much expensive. People from grammars, private, and top performing sixth forms have more opportunities to be able to get into a medicine course (work experience, UCAS help, UCAT/BMAT help, Uni fairs, etc). Some people applying to nursing degrees may never have gotten support or help from their school.

4.

Mainly it comes down to passion. I would hope people choose nursing because they love it and not just a backup due to the fact they never got into medicine

Why Not MD or MBBS

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