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Dropping out of uni for law

So i started university at salford doing law with criminology, i have alot of mixed feelings about this due to it not being classed as a good uni for law. Im soon to be on my second semester for this and i want to drop out and go in a better uni. Its hard to transfer as not much good unis let you and you have to have good a levels such as aab or abb. my a level grades are BBB, i was thinking of dropping out and re tsking an a level or two, as i still have time and i would probslly change my course to law with politics or law with international relations. But i dont know what to do. Or whether to just deal with it for the next 3 years. My parents also dont like the idea of me moving out but theres no good universities near me and i also value my educarion alot and i hope to have alot of opportunities. I hear alot of mixed opinions about getting a law degree from a russel group uni.

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Reply 1

Original post
by Simrasaied
So i started university at salford doing law with criminology, i have alot of mixed feelings about this due to it not being classed as a good uni for law. Im soon to be on my second semester for this and i want to drop out and go in a better uni. Its hard to transfer as not much good unis let you and you have to have good a levels such as aab or abb. my a level grades are BBB, i was thinking of dropping out and re tsking an a level or two, as i still have time and i would probslly change my course to law with politics or law with international relations. But i dont know what to do. Or whether to just deal with it for the next 3 years. My parents also dont like the idea of me moving out but theres no good universities near me and i also value my educarion alot and i hope to have alot of opportunities. I hear alot of mixed opinions about getting a law degree from a russel group uni.

It's a bit risky because a number of universities don't accept one or two subject resits, however, I believe a number of good RG unis do. It would be worthwhile contacting admissions to make sure they would consider you if you applied.

The only way you would stand out at Salford is if you were ranked in the top 5%-10% with a really high first and a number of academic awards. Otherwise even a first wouldn't look that impressive because of how ultracompetitive the legal job market is now, it's hard to secure minimum wage paralegal positions let alone getting a training contract. If you attend any RG uni and average a good 2.1(65%) then you wouldn't have the same issues. I know the cutoff for a number of magic circle firms is 65% from emailing A&O, Slaughter and May and Freshfields.

Reply 2

You could try apply to Surrey, I reckon you would get in with those grades for the law course as the entry requirements are ABB i believe. It’s not a target university for law, but it shouldn’t hold you back at all on your cv and applications since it’s one of the best non-Russel groups and well-ranked. Alternatively you could try applying for Reading Uni also, that’s got a pretty good law department.

Reply 3

*try applying to Surrey

Reply 4

Original post
by Carter03052
You could try apply to Surrey, I reckon you would get in with those grades for the law course as the entry requirements are ABB i believe. It’s not a target university for law, but it shouldn’t hold you back at all on your cv and applications since it’s one of the best non-Russel groups and well-ranked. Alternatively you could try applying for Reading Uni also, that’s got a pretty good law department.

I've not met a single Surrey or Reading graduate on any of the open days, insight days or assessment days I've attended at Magic Circle, Silver Circle or US firms. There could be a number in the national and regional firms though but barely any in London.

Reply 5

Original post
by Academic007
I've not met a single Surrey or Reading graduate on any of the open days, insight days or assessment days I've attended at Magic Circle, Silver Circle or US firms. There could be a number in the national and regional firms though but barely any in London.


Yeah, like I said, they’re not target universities, so they probably will be underrepresented at the most prestigious law firms in the country/world. But that doesn’t mean you’re automatically not going to be employed. A lot of law firms recruit university blind now anyways

Reply 6

Original post
by Carter03052
Yeah, like I said, they’re not target universities, so they probably will be underrepresented at the most prestigious law firms in the country/world. But that doesn’t mean you’re automatically not going to be employed. A lot of law firms recruit university blind now anyways

Yeah that's what they say but literally every major firm asks about what Uni you attended

Reply 7

@Stiffy Byng might be able to give some advice.

Reply 8

Original post
by Academic007
Yeah that's what they say but literally every major firm asks about what Uni you attended



This is incorrect. Many law firms now recruit university-blind. This has been explained to you repeatedly in this forum by practising solicitors and barristers.

Reply 9

Original post
by Stiffy Byng
This is incorrect. Many law firms now recruit university-blind. This has been explained to you repeatedly in this forum by practising solicitors and barristers.

I'm aware of A&O not looking at universities but instead employing a minimum A-level requirement of AAB that automatically excludes the vast majority of non-RG students who likely have worse grades. Then you have insight days and events hosted specifically in RG uni campuses or on behalf of RG unis but sure there is no bias.

I am not saying law firms throw non-RG applications in the bin but that you would literally have to be the best performing student in you're cohort to successfully make it to the assessment centre stage and secure a TC. All the non-RG trainees I see are literally ranked 1 or 3 out of 300 students in terms of their grades yet someone with a mid 2.1 from my uni has a TC at Freshfields. The recruitment process is a joke.

Reply 10

Original post
by Simrasaied
So i started university at salford doing law with criminology, i have alot of mixed feelings about this due to it not being classed as a good uni for law. Im soon to be on my second semester for this and i want to drop out and go in a better uni. Its hard to transfer as not much good unis let you and you have to have good a levels such as aab or abb. my a level grades are BBB, i was thinking of dropping out and re tsking an a level or two, as i still have time and i would probslly change my course to law with politics or law with international relations. But i dont know what to do. Or whether to just deal with it for the next 3 years. My parents also dont like the idea of me moving out but theres no good universities near me and i also value my educarion alot and i hope to have alot of opportunities. I hear alot of mixed opinions about getting a law degree from a russel group uni.

I suggest that you might be better off completing a degree at your current university and then studying for a PGDL if you wish to become a lawyer. Re taking A levels in the hope of obtaining a place at another university would be slow, costly, and uncertain of outcome.

There appears to be a significant over-supply of aspirant lawyers and a static or falling number of legal jobs available, so have a Plan B.

Reply 11

Original post
by Academic007
It's a bit risky because a number of universities don't accept one or two subject resits, however, I believe a number of good RG unis do. It would be worthwhile contacting admissions to make sure they would consider you if you applied.
The only way you would stand out at Salford is if you were ranked in the top 5%-10% with a really high first and a number of academic awards. Otherwise even a first wouldn't look that impressive because of how ultracompetitive the legal job market is now, it's hard to secure minimum wage paralegal positions let alone getting a training contract. If you attend any RG uni and average a good 2.1(65%) then you wouldn't have the same issues. I know the cutoff for a number of magic circle firms is 65% from emailing A&O, Slaughter and May and Freshfields.

So even if i re took my two a levels many wont accept me? Also my parents are a bit iffy with my moving out which limits my options which is difficult, they havnt been to university which they dont understand how prestigious law is and what RG unis are, they tell me ill be fine which is frustrating

Reply 12

Original post
by Academic007
I've not met a single Surrey or Reading graduate on any of the open days, insight days or assessment days I've attended at Magic Circle, Silver Circle or US firms. There could be a number in the national and regional firms though but barely any in London.

Is goldsmith uni in london good and plymouth cause i was considering them, also cardiff and lancaster.

Reply 13

Original post
by Academic007
I'm aware of A&O not looking at universities but instead employing a minimum A-level requirement of AAB that automatically excludes the vast majority of non-RG students who likely have worse grades. Then you have insight days and events hosted specifically in RG uni campuses or on behalf of RG unis but sure there is no bias.
I am not saying law firms throw non-RG applications in the bin but that you would literally have to be the best performing student in you're cohort to successfully make it to the assessment centre stage and secure a TC. All the non-RG trainees I see are literally ranked 1 or 3 out of 300 students in terms of their grades yet someone with a mid 2.1 from my uni has a TC at Freshfields. The recruitment process is a joke.

Why is the process a joke? Law firms are run for profit. They seek to recruit the most able candidates to work for the business. There are many more applicants than there are jobs.

You appear to be allowing fustrations about slow progress in obtaining a training contract to influence your views. It's not clear why you wish to enter a profession which you tend to denounce. Perhaps your disdain for the organisations you are asking to employ you is detectable by those conducting selection processes for those organisations.

It's the custom of youth to rail against age, but you can't be sure that everyone on the selection panels is lacking in judgment and relevant experience. Your apparent assurance that large law firms don't know what they're doing might be mistaken.

Reply 14

Original post
by Simrasaied
So even if i re took my two a levels many wont accept me? Also my parents are a bit iffy with my moving out which limits my options which is difficult, they havnt been to university which they dont understand how prestigious law is and what RG unis are, they tell me ill be fine which is frustrating

What do you mean by prestigious? A law degree is not inherently prestigious. Most lawyers don't become famous or rich. Being a lawyer can be a great job, but it's still just a job. It's better to do a thing you like than to chase money or status.

Reply 15

Original post
by Stiffy Byng
Why is the process a joke? Law firms are run for profit. They seek to recruit the most able candidates to work for the business. There are many more applicants than there are jobs.
You appear to be allowing fustrations about slow progress in obtaining a training contract to influence your views. It's not clear why you wish to enter a profession which you tend to denounce. Perhaps your disdain for the organisations you are asking to employ you is detectable by those conducting selection processes for those organisations.
It's the custom of youth to rail against age, but you can't be sure that everyone on the selection panels is lacking in judgment and relevant experience. Your apparent assurance that large law firms don't know what they're doing might be mistaken.

They use lazy filters like interactive assessments or psychometric tests that are largely irrelevant in determining suitability for a role and use Vac schemes to recruit students in second-year making fewer TCs available for graduates. The worst are the pre-recorded video answers that introduce all sorts of bias in the selection process that are now implemented by every major firm because it's cheaper than conducting face-to-face interviews.

No, it's not a fair process whatsoever and a lot of great candidates are rejected every year.

Reply 16

Original post
by Academic007
They use lazy filters like interactive assessments or psychometric tests that are largely irrelevant in determining suitability for a role and use Vac schemes to recruit students in second-year making fewer TCs available for graduates. The worst are the pre-recorded video answers that introduce all sorts of bias in the selection process that are now implemented by every major firm because it's cheaper than conducting face-to-face interviews.
No, it's not a fair process whatsoever and a lot of great candidates are rejected every year.


If large law firms are recruiting the wrong people, why are those firms so profitable? Confidence in youth is admirable, but you appear to think that you know best, and that the people who run successful law firms don't know what they are doing. You might be wrong about that. Ykur suggestion that running vacation schemes is unfair appears particularly ill thought through. Every graduate was once an undergraduate.

It may be that your scorn for the profession which you say that you wish to work in comes across when you are interviewed by people already working in that profession. Seething with anger and resentment might not be the best way in. Why do you even want the job? You appear to dislike lawyers, or at least law firms. If you are not happy standing outside the walls yelling "let me in!", would you be happy if you do get in, and end up working for one of these organisations that you consider lazy, unfair, and biased?

With (I assume) a 2.1 in Law from Nottingham, you fit the profile of many a successful applicant for a training contract and, indeed, many a partner in a law firm. But there are too many applicants chasing a finite and possibly reducing number of jobs, and so far the dice have not rolled in your favour. Maybe they will in the future. It can take people several rounds to succeed in finding a position.

But a job in a large law firm isn't an entitlement, and the blunt realities of supply and demand dictate that many of those who aspire to be lawyers won't succeed in their aspiration.

Think of this in Competition Law terms. There used to be relatively few law schools. Now there are lots of law schools. The relevant customers here are not law students. The students are the product. The relevant customers here are employers of junior lawyers (I include the self-employed Bar in this group for ease of reference). Those customers have a wide choice of potential new recruits. The expansion of the legal educational market has therefore favoured the customers.

Now look at things through a different lens, with aspiring lawyers as the customers. Their interests are not well served by the wide availability of law courses, many of doubtful quality. The qualifications which students are transacting for vary widely. There is a big difference in quality of product between a law degree from Cambridge and a law degree from a small university which used to be a polytechnic and started a law school ten years ago.

Hopes and dreams are fuelled by course providers. Look at the advertising on this forum by UoL, for example, and all the cheery messaging from UoL's paid or unpaid promoters who post here, and likewise the active promotional posting by the law schools of various non-stellar universities. They are selling what are too often impossible or at least improbable dreams.

Place this in the context of general educational culture, and Disneyfied approaches to ambition: "if you wish for something hard enough, you shall have it".

The unfairness which I observe is in the production of unrealistic aspirations. Everyone thinks that an owl is about to fly in through the window and say "It's Hogwarts for you!", but there are in fact only a fixed number of seats on the Hogwarts Express, and that's before you even get near the Sorting Hat.

Your aspirations might be realistic, given your qualifications, but it may take you a while yet to succeed, given the numbers involved.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post
by Simrasaied
So i started university at salford doing law with criminology, i have alot of mixed feelings about this due to it not being classed as a good uni for law. Im soon to be on my second semester for this and i want to drop out and go in a better uni. Its hard to transfer as not much good unis let you and you have to have good a levels such as aab or abb. my a level grades are BBB, i was thinking of dropping out and re tsking an a level or two, as i still have time and i would probslly change my course to law with politics or law with international relations. But i dont know what to do. Or whether to just deal with it for the next 3 years. My parents also dont like the idea of me moving out but theres no good universities near me and i also value my educarion alot and i hope to have alot of opportunities. I hear alot of mixed opinions about getting a law degree from a russel group uni.


Are you unhappy at Salford besides your assumption that you “should” go somewhere more “prestigious”?
Does Salford offer law with politics/IR?
If you aren’t unhappy then you would be better sticking with Salford and getting stuck in (getting the best degree classification and getting involved in activities outside your curriculum).
You can move out even if you live close to Salford if that’s your motivation. See if Salford has space in halls for second year students.

Reply 18

Original post
by Academic007
They use lazy filters like interactive assessments or psychometric tests that are largely irrelevant in determining suitability for a role and use Vac schemes to recruit students in second-year making fewer TCs available for graduates. The worst are the pre-recorded video answers that introduce all sorts of bias in the selection process that are now implemented by every major firm because it's cheaper than conducting face-to-face interviews.
No, it's not a fair process whatsoever and a lot of great candidates are rejected every year.

Magic Circle, Silver Circle and US firms receive literally thousands of applications for a relatively small number of TCs. It's not unusual to hear about ratios of 50:1 if not more.

When faced with that volume of applications, how do you suggest firms sift through the applications? Filters such as interactive assessments, psychometrics and video answers provide additional means by which firms can more objectively assess candidates' quality and suitability. It is utterly unfeasible to expect a grad recruitment team to interview hundreds of individuals - there simply isn't the time, and you certainly can't expect fee-earning partners to set aside dozens, if not hundreds, of hours to do so.

In what way would you say pre-recorded video answers introduce bias that a face-to-face interview does not?

Likewise, why do you think that the vac scheme recruitment process is unfair? At the end of the day, that represents a week-long interview which, to me, seems like a sensible way to assess whether someone might have the requisite skills and characteristics. Yes, it means that some candidates steal a march on others but all power to them.

Does this mean that a lot of great candidates are rejected each year? Absolutely. That's because there are more great candidates than there are training contracts. That's the nature of a competitive industry. If major firms thought that they were recruiting a bunch of duds, they would change their processes (and have done so over time). Firms are acutely conscious of not being biased towards/against those from certain groups and backgrounds and initiatives such as university-blind recruitment helps towards that.

At the end of the day, however, today's trainees will be tomorrow's partners and they are entitled to seek out the very best. Unfortunately, that does mean that some who are "very good" just won't make it. That is, as Stiffy notes, becoming increasingly challenging as firms take ever smaller intakes given changes in the way firms work. When I started in the late 1990s, it was common for the Magic Circle to take 120+ trainees each whereas the likes of A&OS now take 80.

Candidates like you, who are just missing the cut, have my greatest sympathies but it is a cut-throat industry at the very top. Firms aren't always keeping all of their trainees on qualification now, whereas that used to be a given. Likewise, under-performing junior associates are quickly spat out of the machine. Firms are looking far earlier in lawyers' careers at whether or not they have the potential to become the sort of individuals who can build multi-million pound practices. It used to only be Slaughters and Freshfields who had unofficial "up or out" policies, but that's becoming increasingly common. So, you need to see the process in the round: the top firms are utterly focused on building ultra-lean, highly-profitable teams comprised of absolutely stellar professionals - and that starts with trainee recruitment.

Reply 19

Original post
by Stiffy Byng
If large law firms are recruiting the wrong people, why are those firms so profitable? Confidence in youth is admirable, but you appear to think that you know best, and that the people who run successful law firms don't know what they are doing. You might be wrong about that. Ykur suggestion that running vacation schemes is unfair appears particularly ill thought through. Every graduate was once an undergraduate.
It may be that your scorn for the profession which you say that you wish to work in comes across when you are interviewed by people already working in that profession. Seething with anger and resentment might not be the best way in. Why do you even want the job? You appear to dislike lawyers, or at least law firms. If you are not happy standing outside the walls yelling "let me in!", would you be happy if you do get in, and end up working for one of these organisations that you consider lazy, unfair, and biased?
With (I assume) a 2.1 in Law from Nottingham, you fit the profile of many a successful applicant for a training contract and, indeed, many a partner in a law firm. But there are too many applicants chasing a finite and possibly reducing number of jobs, and so far the dice have not rolled in your favour. Maybe they will in the future. It can take people several rounds to succeed in finding a position.
But a job in a large law firm isn't an entitlement, and the blunt realities of supply and demand dictate that many of those who aspire to be lawyers won't succeed in their aspiration.
Think of this in Competition Law terms. There used to be relatively few law schools. Now there are lots of law schools. The relevant customers here are not law students. The students are the product. The relevant customers here are employers of junior lawyers (I include the self-employed Bar in this group for ease of reference). Those customers have a wide choice of potential new recruits. The expansion of the legal educational market has therefore favoured the customers.
Now look at things through a different lens, with aspiring lawyers as the customers. Their interests are not well served by the wide availability of law courses, many of doubtful quality. The qualifications which students are transacting for vary widely. There is a big difference in quality of product between a law degree from Cambridge and a law degree from a small university which used to be a polytechnic and started a law school ten years ago.
Hopes and dreams are fuelled by course providers. Look at the advertising on this forum by UoL, for example, and all the cheery messaging from UoL's paid or unpaid promoters who post here, and likewise the active promotional posting by the law schools of various non-stellar universities. They are selling what are too often impossible or at least improbable dreams.
Place this in the context of general educational culture, and Disneyfied approaches to ambition: "if you wish for something hard enough, you shall have it".
The unfairness which I observe is in the production of unrealistic aspirations. Everyone thinks that an owl is about to fly in through the window and say "It's Hogwarts for you!", but there are in fact only a fixed number of seats on the Hogwarts Express, and that's before you even get near the Sorting Hat.
Your aspirations might be realistic, given your qualifications, but it may take you a while yet to succeed, given the numbers involved.


I’ve been reading your replies and I find them extremely interesting and you seem to be very knowledgeable, so I was wondering how much of a disadvantage would someone be at if they attended the University of Surrey, in your own opinion being 100% honest? It’s normally around top 20 in rankings but obviously isn’t Russel group. Do you think a masters at an RG uni would be a good idea, or should they just focus on getting as much experience like everyone else? Many thanks

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