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reverse chain rule question

When doing cosec^2 2x cot 2x dx, I get -(1/2)(cot ^2 2x) + c, but I was curious and used cosec^2 2x with reverse chain rule and I cant seem to get the same value or anything equivalent. Is it wrong to use cosec^2x in the reverse chain rule or have i just gotten the wrong answer

Reply 1

Original post
by Fesdces1
When doing cosec^2 2x cot 2x dx, I get -(1/2)(cot ^2 2x) + c, but I was curious and used cosec^2 2x with reverse chain rule and I cant seem to get the same value or anything equivalent. Is it wrong to use cosec^2x in the reverse chain rule or have i just gotten the wrong answer

Seems ok to me, but youre out by a (1/2)? If youre unsure about your working maybe post your explanation for reverse chain or explicitly do a substitution if youve covered that. But you can express the ans in terms of cosec^2(2x) using the pythagorean identity / do the reverse chain differently.

Reply 2

Original post
by mqb2766
Seems ok to me, but youre out by a (1/2)? If youre unsure about your working maybe post your explanation for reverse chain or explicitly do a substitution if youve covered that. But you can express the ans in terms of cosec(2x) using the pythagorean identity / do the reverse chain differently.

Screenshot 2025-01-11 11.44.38.png I get this, even with the identity I cant see them being equivalent and when I differentiate my solution and dont end up with what I started with

Reply 3

Original post
by Fesdces1
Screenshot 2025-01-11 11.44.38.png I get this, even with the identity I cant see them being equivalent and when I differentiate my solution and dont end up with what I started with

You had cot^2(2x) in the op and using the pythagorean identity, and ignoring the +1 as thats another pesky constant, thats cosec^2(2x). So diff either/both of those and see what you get, then think about how to reverse it/them, so which term(s) is/are the derviative and which is the square youre looking for.

Not sure where the cube part for y comes from in your working (its not right).

Reply 4

Original post
by mqb2766
You had cot^2(2x) in the op and using the pythagorean identity and ignoring the +1 as thats another pesky constant thats cosec^2(2x). So diff either/both of those and see what you get, then think about how to reverse it, so which term(s) is the derviative and which is the square youre looking for.

but its cosec^3 2x not ^2 so the identity would uphold

Reply 5

Original post
by Fesdces1
but its cosec^3 2x not ^2 so the identity would uphold

Why is it a cube?

Reply 6

Original post
by mqb2766
You had cot^2(2x) in the op and using the pythagorean identity, and ignoring the +1 as thats another pesky constant, thats cosec^2(2x). So diff either/both of those and see what you get, then think about how to reverse it/them, so which term(s) is/are the derviative and which is the square youre looking for.
Not sure where the cube part for y comes from in your working (its not right).

Dont you have to increase the power by 1, its what ive done for every question that ive answered and its worked

Reply 7

Original post
by mqb2766
Why is it a cube?

Screenshot 2025-01-11 11.55.40.png For example here I did the same thing and it was correct

Reply 8

Original post
by Fesdces1
Dont you have to increase the power by 1, its what ive done for every question that ive answered and its worked

Sounds a solid reason to me :-).

So the derivative of
f^2(x)
is
2f'(x)f(x)
So if it was cot^2, whats the derivative of cot? Or if its cosec^2, whats the derivative of cosec?

Reply 9

Original post
by mqb2766
Sounds a solid reason to me :-).
So the derivative of
f^2(x)
is
2f'(x)f(x)
So if it was cot^2, whats the derivative of cot?
Derivative of cot ^2 x


(cot x )^2 --> 2cot x sec^2x = 2cotx sec^2x which that works with the question. Thats where my confusion lies because it doesnt work when you do the same thing with the cosec

Reply 10

Original post
by Fesdces1
Derivative of cot ^2 x
(cot x )^2 --> 2cot x sec^2x = 2cotx sec^2x which that works with the question. Thats where my confusion lies because it doesnt work when you do the same thing with the cosec

Sure so (forgetting about the double angles / constants)
cot^2 <-> 2 (cosec^2) cot
so you pick cosec^2 as the dervative of cot and get cot^2 (+c) when you do the revese chain/anti derivative.

So same thing with cosec^2 is ....

It must be the same thing as the pythagorean identity says
cot^2 = cosec^2 (+c)

Reply 11

Original post
by mqb2766
Sure so (forgetting about the double angles / constants)
cot^2 <-> 2 (cosec^2) cot
so you pick sec^2 as the dervative of cot and get cot^2 (+c) when you do the revese chain/anti derivative.
So same thing with cosec^2 is ....
It must be the same thing as the pythagorean identity says
cot^2 = cosec^2 (+c)

-cosec ^2 is the derivative of cot not sec^2 though


oh no worries you changed it

Reply 12

Original post
by Fesdces1
-cosec ^2 is the derivative of cot not sec^2 though

sure, that was a typo which Ive corrected.

Reply 13

Original post
by mqb2766
Sure so (forgetting about the double angles / constants)
cot^2 <-> 2 (cosec^2) cot
so you pick cosec^2 as the dervative of cot and get cot^2 (+c) when you do the revese chain/anti derivative.
So same thing with cosec^2 is ....
It must be the same thing as the pythagorean identity says
cot^2 = cosec^2 (+c)

Im not really sure what you are saying, so are you saying that - cosec ^3 / 6 + c is the same as -1/4 cot ^2 +c

Reply 14

Original post
by Fesdces1
Im not really sure what you are saying, so are you saying that - cosec ^3 / 6 + c is the same as -1/4 cot ^2 +c

No. Have you tried differnetiating cosec^2 and therefore spotting what the reverse chain is?

If you think about it, the deriviative of the square of cot (so cot^2) is a cube in trig terms so cosec^2 cot, so differentiation increases the order/integration decreases the order. cot is cos/sin, so the derivative is found using the quotient rule which gives square terms on the numerator and denominator so ...
(edited 10 months ago)

Reply 15

Original post
by mqb2766
No. Have you tried differnetiating cosec^2 and thefrefore spotting what the reverse chain is?
If you think about it, the deriviative of the square cot^2 is a cubic in trig terms so cosec^2 cot, so differntiating increases the order/integration decreases the order.
Yes but using the reverse chain rule for cosec^2 leads you to the point I was at anyway right?

Reply 16

Original post
by Fesdces1
Yes but using the reverse chain rule for cosec^2 leads you to the point I was at anyway right?

Of course it does / it must by the pythagoren identity. The reverse chain is not cosec^3 though. You should be doing
cosec^2 <-> (cosec cot) cosec
so the right hand side (derivative) is a cube of trig terms, the integral on the left is a square which is becuse the derviative of 1/sin is cos/sin^2 (negated).

Reply 17

Original post
by mqb2766
Of course it does / it must by the pythagoren identity. The reverse chain is not cosec^3 though. You should be doing
cosec^2 <-> (cosec cot) cosec
so the right hand side (derivative) is a cubic, the integral on the left is a square which is becuse the derviative of 1/sin is cos/sin^2 (+c, and negated).

Why is it not cosec^3 because its what ive done for every question and its been okay.

Reply 18

Original post
by Fesdces1
Why is it not cosec^3 because its what ive done for every question and its been okay.

Thats what Ive been trying to explain in the previous posts. The derivative of cosec is cosec cot so the number of trig terms increases by 1. So integrating cosec cot gives just cosec and the number of trig terms decreases by 1. The rule
x^n <-> 1/(n+1) x^(n+1)
does not necessarily apply x is a function, as you have to explicitly use the chain/reverse chain rule.

You have
sin^3 <-> cos sin^2
because sin <-> cos using differentiation/integration. However here you have
cosec^2 <-> (cosec cot) cosec
because cosec <-> cosec cot using differentiation/integration. So the integral becomes a square of cosec as f(x) = cosec, f'(x) = cosec cot and identifying those two terms is the key part of applying the reverse chain rule.

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