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Slightly under entry requirements - Durham v St Andrews

Hey, so I’m an international IBDP student thinking about where to apply for my final 5th choice for UCAS. I meet the entry requirements for all my other schools, but for my final 5th school, I’m thinking of applying to Durham or St Andrews.

My current grades are 41/45 predicted, with a 765 HL. St Andrews, where I may apply for IR, asks for 666 with a 36/45. Durham, where I may apply for Law, asks for 666 with a 38/45. Do I have a shot at either of these schools?

For St Andrews, I know there is a slight international fee bias (and the international pop is quite big), and though I know ECs don’t weigh a lot, I’m proficient in three languages and have a strong debate / MUN portfolio, winning regional and global awards from prestigious orgs like the Oxford Debate Society. I would also submit through the commonapp rather than UCAS, in that way, providing a more specialized statement.

For Durham, I’ve heard they’re more strict/rigid? I did talk to their admissions officers and they told me LNAT and PS would be a major factor too. My LNAT hasn’t come out but I’m feeling pretty good (low 30s). They also told me I could submit a second statement because I’m only applying to one other school for law.

I’m honestly leaning towards St Andrews for the international prestige because I probably will want to go abroad for a masters / work in my home country. I’ve also heard their student services are stronger. And most importantly, I want flexibility and I worry Durham’s prestige is largely limited to the UK, so I may have trouble getting jobs abroad.

Of course, I know missing entry requirements is a major red flag, and it’s already a risk. But I feel confident in my other UCAS choices (and I’m applying to a lot of unis elsewhere), so really, I just want to know if I’ll be completely ruled out at either school or if I’ll have a significantly larger chance at one of them.
Yes, Durham is much more rigid and conservative with their entry requirements and do not weigh personal statements to the same extent as some other unis. In terms of your entry requirements: It is worth emailing the admissions team of both schools about your situation as they would know best.

My take? If you don't mind taking the gamble for one of your 5 choices, I say take it. Since your aggregate score ios predicted to be high, you might be given an offer on the conditions that you achieve that 6 instead of a 5. Also, is the subject you got a 5 in directly related to the major your applying for? If the 5 is in science or maths and your 7 and 6 is in a humanities subject I think its worth a shot.

But be aware that the applicants you are competing with will have better grades than you so hopefully your good LNAT score will set you apart.
Reply 2
Original post by lawlawlawtokyo
Yes, Durham is much more rigid and conservative with their entry requirements and do not weigh personal statements to the same extent as some other unis. In terms of your entry requirements: It is worth emailing the admissions team of both schools about your situation as they would know best.
My take? If you don't mind taking the gamble for one of your 5 choices, I say take it. Since your aggregate score ios predicted to be high, you might be given an offer on the conditions that you achieve that 6 instead of a 5. Also, is the subject you got a 5 in directly related to the major your applying for? If the 5 is in science or maths and your 7 and 6 is in a humanities subject I think its worth a shot.
But be aware that the applicants you are competing with will have better grades than you so hopefully your good LNAT score will set you apart.

Thank you so much for the advice! I talked to Durham so far and the AO for my region told me essentially what you said: a 765 cannot substitute a 666; yet, with a strong LNAT score and with a high IB score, I may be in with a chance. They also mentioned, like you said, that if I gain an offer, my acceptance would likely be conditional on receiving a 666 in my exams this May! St Andrews I'm yet to talk with; however, I finally got in touch and got a meeting with them this Wednesday. As for my 5, it's in Math AA HL!

I'm pretty much leaning towards what you're saying: as an international applicant, I already have safeties in my home country, so I'd only go to the UK if I get accepted into an institution which would provide me with further opportunities. The only other school I was considering was SOAS because I plan to go into Int Public Law and they have a strong foreign studies program too.

I want to ask by the way, seeing as your name has "law", do you know what kind of graduate opportunities are most common for Durham law? My general feeling is that if I go to Durham, I'd be locked into working with a national firm (perhaps in London); however, if I pursue, I only really want to go into international public law, like int humanitarian law or int criminal law. I'm worried that applying might not make sense in the long run, cause' I've heard that Durham's name value doesn't hold up internationally as much as it does in the UK. My feeling is that if I go to St Andrews, I'll have a much better chance at postgrad internationally and have job opportunities abroad. Would you agree with this sentiment?

Thank you so much again!
Original post by Anonymous
Thank you so much for the advice! I talked to Durham so far and the AO for my region told me essentially what you said: a 765 cannot substitute a 666; yet, with a strong LNAT score and with a high IB score, I may be in with a chance. They also mentioned, like you said, that if I gain an offer, my acceptance would likely be conditional on receiving a 666 in my exams this May! St Andrews I'm yet to talk with; however, I finally got in touch and got a meeting with them this Wednesday. As for my 5, it's in Math AA HL!
I'm pretty much leaning towards what you're saying: as an international applicant, I already have safeties in my home country, so I'd only go to the UK if I get accepted into an institution which would provide me with further opportunities. The only other school I was considering was SOAS because I plan to go into Int Public Law and they have a strong foreign studies program too.
I want to ask by the way, seeing as your name has "law", do you know what kind of graduate opportunities are most common for Durham law? My general feeling is that if I go to Durham, I'd be locked into working with a national firm (perhaps in London); however, if I pursue, I only really want to go into international public law, like int humanitarian law or int criminal law. I'm worried that applying might not make sense in the long run, cause' I've heard that Durham's name value doesn't hold up internationally as much as it does in the UK. My feeling is that if I go to St Andrews, I'll have a much better chance at postgrad internationally and have job opportunities abroad. Would you agree with this sentiment?
Thank you so much again!

I am only applying to university now therefore my knowledge is limited, even so I think I can give you a place to start.

1.

Durham(much like every law school in England and Whales) offers a common law degree which is essentially the foundation of the justice systems in most common wealth countries (although the American one is debatable). While Durham is no Oxbridge, it certainly is a Russel Group university that has gained reputation for its high academic standards. For this reason not only will Durham not hurt your chances but It will be an added bonus that you have a law degree in common law from a UK school (again may not apply for the US).

2.

Now, with this being said in any career, you are never stuck. College is not the destination and the truth is no one will care for the name of your university once you have at least 2 years of work under your belt, grades don't win firms money, your skills do. You can always do an LLM in the country you wish to work in, gain accreditation in the country you want to work in with examination, or even simply work under the supervision of an accredited lawyer in the particular juristriction you want to work in.
Hope that helped.

In general it is recommended to apply to at least one aspirational choice. I can't speak for those courses specifically, but you are very close in terms of IBDP grades.

Remember that you don't need 5 offers back, and it's fine to have one or more riskier choices.
Original post by lawlawlawtokyo
I am only applying to university now therefore my knowledge is limited, even so I think I can give you a place to start.

1.

Durham(much like every law school in England and Whales) offers a common law degree which is essentially the foundation of the justice systems in most common wealth countries (although the American one is debatable). While Durham is no Oxbridge, it certainly is a Russel Group university that has gained reputation for its high academic standards. For this reason not only will Durham not hurt your chances but It will be an added bonus that you have a law degree in common law from a UK school (again may not apply for the US).

2.

Now, with this being said in any career, you are never stuck. College is not the destination and the truth is no one will care for the name of your university once you have at least 2 years of work under your belt, grades don't win firms money, your skills do. You can always do an LLM in the country you wish to work in, gain accreditation in the country you want to work in with examination, or even simply work under the supervision of an accredited lawyer in the particular juristriction you want to work in.
Hope that helped.


Also, I forgot to add. You mentioned how certain unis might be better for you because of the kind of law you want to go into. I am bit concerned by this take. Law, especially common law is a highly regulated course, the difference in uni does not really make a difference in the actual content you are learning. While foreign studies can arguably be beneficial indirectly, it wont be the accolade that will set you apart to pursue int law etc.

Note: Specilialization in law comes much later in your career. In the UK you must undergo two years of traning before you are a licensed solliciter. Those two years comprise of 4 sets of 6 month training in difference fields of law of your choice. Also, I cannot seem to find St.Andrews LLB course, maybe do some research on the nature of the course, as if it it in Scotts law then you cannot even work outside Scotland without taking extra course work. Location matters too!
Reply 6
Original post by Admit-One
In general it is recommended to apply to at least one aspirational choice. I can't speak for those courses specifically, but you are very close in terms of IBDP grades.
Remember that you don't need 5 offers back, and it's fine to have one or more riskier choices.
Thank you for the info! I'll definitely apply to one of these in that case
Reply 7
Original post by lawlawlawtokyo
Also, I forgot to add. You mentioned how certain unis might be better for you because of the kind of law you want to go into. I am bit concerned by this take. Law, especially common law is a highly regulated course, the difference in uni does not really make a difference in the actual content you are learning. While foreign studies can arguably be beneficial indirectly, it wont be the accolade that will set you apart to pursue int law etc.
Note: Specilialization in law comes much later in your career. In the UK you must undergo two years of traning before you are a licensed solliciter. Those two years comprise of 4 sets of 6 month training in difference fields of law of your choice. Also, I cannot seem to find St.Andrews LLB course, maybe do some research on the nature of the course, as if it it in Scotts law then you cannot even work outside Scotland without taking extra course work. Location matters too!
Hmmm, got it! Thanks for the advice. I suppose studying law at Durham won't be the great decider I made it out to be. By the way, you mentioned that the connection with US law can be a bit iffy - are you saying that it'd be harder to go JD in the US a few years after graduating then?
Original post by Anonymous
Thank you so much for the advice! I talked to Durham so far and the AO for my region told me essentially what you said: a 765 cannot substitute a 666; yet, with a strong LNAT score and with a high IB score, I may be in with a chance. They also mentioned, like you said, that if I gain an offer, my acceptance would likely be conditional on receiving a 666 in my exams this May! St Andrews I'm yet to talk with; however, I finally got in touch and got a meeting with them this Wednesday. As for my 5, it's in Math AA HL!
I'm pretty much leaning towards what you're saying: as an international applicant, I already have safeties in my home country, so I'd only go to the UK if I get accepted into an institution which would provide me with further opportunities. The only other school I was considering was SOAS because I plan to go into Int Public Law and they have a strong foreign studies program too.
I want to ask by the way, seeing as your name has "law", do you know what kind of graduate opportunities are most common for Durham law? My general feeling is that if I go to Durham, I'd be locked into working with a national firm (perhaps in London); however, if I pursue, I only really want to go into international public law, like int humanitarian law or int criminal law. I'm worried that applying might not make sense in the long run, cause' I've heard that Durham's name value doesn't hold up internationally as much as it does in the UK. My feeling is that if I go to St Andrews, I'll have a much better chance at postgrad internationally and have job opportunities abroad. Would you agree with this sentiment?
Thank you so much again!

Hi there,

I hope you are well.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about Durham or St Andrews but just for some general application advice, reaching out to the admissions team for each university is always the best idea. I would definitely agree with some of the others on this chain, if there is a shot, it is always a good idea to put your hat in the ring for a university that might seem out of reach just in case it ends up working out in your favour.

Regarding your questions about universities' international recognition, in terms of SOAS (speaking as a law student myself here), SOAS is quite reputable on the international platform. SOAS is unique and is known as the World's University because we specialise in the areas of Africa, Asia and the Middle East. When studying law at SOAS, you get more than just the traditional English Legal system, you learn about law from a globalised perspective which (in my opinion) is more interesting. We have modules on Public International Law and Legal Systems of Asia and Africa (you can find the list of all the optional modules here).

SOAS also offers a SOAS–Columbia University Dual Degree Programme (JD/LLM). If you are successful in applying for this programme at the start of your second year of your undergraduate, then you complete your undergraduate degree in 2 years and then move to study and complete your JD at Columbia. This is an incredible opportunity and I would highly recommend you apply if you are interested!

I hope this helps, and I wish you all the best with your applications and your exams! 🙂

--

SOAS Student Rep
Original post by Anonymous
Hmmm, got it! Thanks for the advice. I suppose studying law at Durham won't be the great decider I made it out to be. By the way, you mentioned that the connection with US law can be a bit iffy - are you saying that it'd be harder to go JD in the US a few years after graduating then?

In terms of hiring, I heard firms discriminate against applicants who have a JD vs those who have been educated elsewhere and gotten an LLM in the US. Either way depending on the states rules you will most likely have to pass the Bar in the state you want to practice in. Now, some concerns about employment discrimination can be remedied by joining an international law firm in the UK and then transfer to a branch in the US. There are many paths that can get you to your dream or ideal work space. I am in the same boat and sometimes I forget that I don’t really even know all the opportunities that are in the field of law so it’s good to think ahead but remember that you will only learn many fundamental aspects of what you want to do in the future as time goes on and you gain experiences. For now, I would be it’s good to be informed by don’t stress out about what is gonna happen in 5-10 years, rather focus on immediate next steps:smile:
Original post by SOAS Rep Marjaan
Hi there,
I hope you are well.
Unfortunately, I don't know much about Durham or St Andrews but just for some general application advice, reaching out to the admissions team for each university is always the best idea. I would definitely agree with some of the others on this chain, if there is a shot, it is always a good idea to put your hat in the ring for a university that might seem out of reach just in case it ends up working out in your favour.
Regarding your questions about universities' international recognition, in terms of SOAS (speaking as a law student myself here), SOAS is quite reputable on the international platform. SOAS is unique and is known as the World's University because we specialise in the areas of Africa, Asia and the Middle East. When studying law at SOAS, you get more than just the traditional English Legal system, you learn about law from a globalised perspective which (in my opinion) is more interesting. We have modules on Public International Law and Legal Systems of Asia and Africa (you can find the list of all the optional modules here).
SOAS also offers a SOAS–Columbia University Dual Degree Programme (JD/LLM). If you are successful in applying for this programme at the start of your second year of your undergraduate, then you complete your undergraduate degree in 2 years and then move to study and complete your JD at Columbia. This is an incredible opportunity and I would highly recommend you apply if you are interested!
I hope this helps, and I wish you all the best with your applications and your exams! 🙂
--
SOAS Student Rep

Hi! This program sounds kind of perfect? Thank you for letting me know!

Could you send me some details about how many students are selected per cohort and on tuition fees? Could you also send me information on academic pathways that are compatible with this opportunity? I've checked the information in the link; however, it seems to only provide instructions for current Columbia JD students to come to the UK and gain a LLM, lacking information on how to apply from one of the London institutions.
Original post by lawlawlawtokyo
In terms of hiring, I heard firms discriminate against applicants who have a JD vs those who have been educated elsewhere and gotten an LLM in the US. Either way depending on the states rules you will most likely have to pass the Bar in the state you want to practice in. Now, some concerns about employment discrimination can be remedied by joining an international law firm in the UK and then transfer to a branch in the US. There are many paths that can get you to your dream or ideal work space. I am in the same boat and sometimes I forget that I don’t really even know all the opportunities that are in the field of law so it’s good to think ahead but remember that you will only learn many fundamental aspects of what you want to do in the future as time goes on and you gain experiences. For now, I would be it’s good to be informed by don’t stress out about what is gonna happen in 5-10 years, rather focus on immediate next steps:smile:

Got it! Thanks for all the advice. All the best on your apps -- hope you get in where you want to go too!

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