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Cardiff University plans to cut 400 jobs and axe courses

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Reply 40

Original post
by Supermature
I don't want to dwell overly on the question of whether students should choose a university near to home or move away; in the end, it really is a matter of individual preference based on the range of opportunities available at the time. On a purely personal note, I wouldn't see any particular advantage for a West Yorkshire student to move to Southampton or Birmingham to study Law - but others may think differently.
On the subject of private universities, I just wanted to see what role you think they would play in the overall scheme of things. Do you envisage them, like Buckingham, starting from scratch? Or do you see any existing UK universities as candidates for independent status?

It does not have to do with advantage but what the options are. In a “super uni” model, the number of unis offering courses in Law would be few and spread out to ensure regional representation as much as possible. However, in certain cases, some students would sadly lose out. If the West Yorkshire student wants to study Law and the options are Swansea, Southampton or Norwich, they would either accept to move or consider other courses.

On the private universities point, i think the model would consist of some new universities starting from scratch and the change of existing universities (who choose to) to private status. The liberalisation of the sector would encourage new entrants whilst supporting existing players.

That would provide choice for students where some could go to the state uni for free or pay some fees for the private unis.

Reply 41

Original post
by Wired_1800
It does not have to do with advantage but what the options are. In a “super uni” model, the number of unis offering courses in Law would be few and spread out to ensure regional representation as much as possible. However, in certain cases, some students would sadly lose out. If the West Yorkshire student wants to study Law and the options are Swansea, Southampton or Norwich, they would either accept to move or consider other courses.
On the private universities point, i think the model would consist of some new universities starting from scratch and the change of existing universities (who choose to) to private status. The liberalisation of the sector would encourage new entrants whilst supporting existing players.
That would provide choice for students where some could go to the state uni for free or pay some fees for the private unis.

I think you might be envisaging a rather more drastic scaling back of the HE sector than is likely to happen given the level of demand. There are at least five institutions offering LLB Law that are within daily commuting distance of anyone living in West Yorkshire and two have been doing so so since the late 1960s when there were far fewer students. But if these were all to disappear as a result of rationalisation, then yes, there would be no other option but to move in order to study Law.

Where you and I seem to differ is on whether there is any intrinsic benefit to attending a university outside one's home area in circumstances where a good local university offers the right course. If I understand you correctly, you think that there is. Speaking purely from the standpoint of a would-be Law student living in Leeds, I wouldn't consider it worthwhile moving to Birmingham if the same or similar course was on offer in Leeds. There would, however, be merit in moving to Oxford, given its exceptional resources, distinctive teaching methods and international standing.

The private universities question is an interesting one but would likely be an option only for the wealthiest students unless there were generous scholarships that others could access. To be viable, they would probably need to charge something approximating to fees now paid by international students. (The international fee for LLB Law at Leeds University, for example, is currently £26,250 per annum).

At present, only Oxford and Cambridge (which have more money than all other UK universities put together) could contemplate going independent. Unless some friendly tech billionaire would care to step in...!

Reply 42

Original post
by Supermature
I think you might be envisaging a rather more drastic scaling back of the HE sector than is likely to happen given the level of demand. There are at least five institutions offering LLB Law that are within daily commuting distance of anyone living in West Yorkshire and two have been doing so so since the late 1960s when there were far fewer students. But if these were all to disappear as a result of rationalisation, then yes, there would be no other option but to move in order to study Law.
Where you and I seem to differ is on whether there is any intrinsic benefit to attending a university outside one's home area in circumstances where a good local university offers the right course. If I understand you correctly, you think that there is. Speaking purely from the standpoint of a would-be Law student living in Leeds, I wouldn't consider it worthwhile moving to Birmingham if the same or similar course was on offer in Leeds. There would, however, be merit in moving to Oxford, given its exceptional resources, distinctive teaching methods and international standing.
The private universities question is an interesting one but would likely be an option only for the wealthiest students unless there were generous scholarships that others could access. To be viable, they would probably need to charge something approximating to fees now paid by international students. (The international fee for LLB Law at Leeds University, for example, is currently £26,250 per annum).
At present, only Oxford and Cambridge (which have more money than all other UK universities put together) could contemplate going independent. Unless some friendly tech billionaire would care to step in...!

I dont think it is scaling back but a reorganisation to focus on the strengths of certain universities whilst encouraging their expansion where necessary. The model takes motivation from the NHS approach where medical specialities were reorganised into hospital hubs to strengthen their offerings. I do recognise that it is not a perfect model though.

I think that if there are two comparable courses at comparably decent universities, students should opt for the one further away from their home location purely for the independence factor. I don't support or encourage students to dismiss a stronger local university for a poorer one farther afield because of the independence factor. For example, if a student lives close to Leeds and there is a strong course in Maths offered there, it makes no sense to go to Southampton Solent University which could be lower ranked. However, they could go to a London Uni like UCL or others that are higher ranked and distanced away.

Yes, there would be a balance of state provision through loans, scholarships or personal funding. The state alternative would be present. The private model would offer an alternative that gives those unis the space to evolve independently. The criticism of my idea was comparing to US private unis that charge exorbitant fees which was why I said that there may be to be a state intervention to control the fees such as the energy price cap to ensure that a private uni cannot charge £100,000 for a uni course that is actually worth £9,250 per year.

Imperial, LSE and UCL can go independent too. There was an article discussing some unis requesting the Government to allow them to charge a fairer rate for their courses, but the Government rejected the proposal.

Reply 43

Original post
by Wired_1800
I dont think it is scaling back but a reorganisation to focus on the strengths of certain universities whilst encouraging their expansion where necessary. The model takes motivation from the NHS approach where medical specialities were reorganised into hospital hubs to strengthen their offerings. I do recognise that it is not a perfect model though.
I think that if there are two comparable courses at comparably decent universities, students should opt for the one further away from their home location purely for the independence factor. I don't support or encourage students to dismiss a stronger local university for a poorer one farther afield because of the independence factor. For example, if a student lives close to Leeds and there is a strong course in Maths offered there, it makes no sense to go to Southampton Solent University which could be lower ranked. However, they could go to a London Uni like UCL or others that are higher ranked and distanced away.
Yes, there would be a balance of state provision through loans, scholarships or personal funding. The state alternative would be present. The private model would offer an alternative that gives those unis the space to evolve independently. The criticism of my idea was comparing to US private unis that charge exorbitant fees which was why I said that there may be to be a state intervention to control the fees such as the energy price cap to ensure that a private uni cannot charge £100,000 for a uni course that is actually worth £9,250 per year.
Imperial, LSE and UCL can go independent too. There was an article discussing some unis requesting the Government to allow them to charge a fairer rate for their courses, but the Government rejected the proposal.

Thank you for that further clarification. All very interesting and much that I can agree with. How refreshing it is to be able to discuss these matters in such a productive and civilised manner. And - so far, at least - with the notable absence of those who are inclined to respond with a barrage of insults aimed at other users with whom they just happen to disagree.
Original post
by Supermature
Thank you for that further clarification. All very interesting and much that I can agree with. How refreshing it is to be able to discuss these matters in such a productive and civilised manner. And - so far, at least - with the notable absence of those who are inclined to respond with a barrage of insults aimed at other users with whom they just happen to disagree.


It's my first thread in this part of the site and I'm very impressed to be honest.

Reply 45

Original post
by Supermature
Thank you for that further clarification. All very interesting and much that I can agree with. How refreshing it is to be able to discuss these matters in such a productive and civilised manner. And - so far, at least - with the notable absence of those who are inclined to respond with a barrage of insults aimed at other users with whom they just happen to disagree.

Thank you for engaging in good faith. I agree that it is refreshing to engage in a civilised manner. It seems that discourse has become so charged in recent times that disagreeing with one’s arguments often lead to personal animosity too. Some throw the “troll” label or push it to the extent where they could use the “Hitler” attack line.
Just a reminder that you can always use the report flag if you feel people are indulging in ad hominems rather than debating the topic.

I hope all staff affected at Cardiff find new roles quickly.

Reply 47

Hi guys,

I know theres a lot going around right now, remember that at this time most of this is speculation. We are being patient, to find out more information. But I am told nothing will happen too quickly, and students currently at the university will still be able to graduate from their programmes and anyone with an offer to start their course in 2025 will still be able to do so.
Many other unis are also doing the same thing unfortunately.
Cardiff is still an amazing city to be a student in, with a great Students' union, and a good uni, with good teachers, and a lovely community.
Hope this helps, and any questions please let me know and i will do my best to help ease any concerns.

Grace - Cardiff Uni Student Rep :smile:

Reply 48

Original post
by mesub
Verging slightly away, but do you think technology could be a real driver to cutting the amount of admin staff needed?
Universities are often massive employers in their local areas - are there jobs available elsewhere for the people who may be displaced by this, or are we going to see a rise in unemployment?

Original post
by PQ
A substantial amount of bureaucracy in universities is to meet the demands of the statutory bodies like OfS in England and Medr in Wales.
These organisations set out requirements for data, information, regulations and quality.
If you want to influence the requirements then OfS is currently running a consultation on their future strategy including asking for input from students. I doubt many students have responded. https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/ofs-strategy-for-2025-to-2030/

Thanks for the questions and info.

During my undergrad, I’ve noticed some admins behaved in ways I’d describe unprofessional and twisted towards students, graduates, and even towards some academic staff. If they weren’t invested in me having a good quality student experience or support my employability, why would I care about their job security? It also felt like they had too much time on their hands. That said, I’m a fair person and I believe everyone who is willing and able to work should have opportunities to do so. But if someone’s approach to work is at odds with the values of the HE sector and their main actors (researchers, teachers, students), perhaps another field would be a better fit for them.

Of course work culture plays a role and there’re many support staff who are incredibly competent and good people. However, some academics argue that universities have become overstaffed with admins, which makes a careful reassessment necessary. My undergrad university went the other way around, first simplified some degree programme composition and assessments (they did so to my degree, in my view weakening its value), before restructuring governance and reducing admin roles, saying they had concerns about inefficiency (some admins worked more than others) and financial sustainability.

Many academics are also frustrated with the endless admin work in universities, feeling it takes away from research, supervision, and deep thinking. I recall a paper from a well-known scientist from a prestigious university saying that academics should push back against unnecessary bureaucratic requests to prevent them from expending further.

At the end of the day, if I’m paying off a student loan (and some more) worth hundreds of pounds on a monthly basis for two-three decades making it difficult for me to save for a house etc., I strongly prefer that my investment goes towards an education that benefits me, one that enhances my skillset and competitiveness in the job market, fosters a positive student-staff relationship, and supports staff (both academic and admin) who genuinely have my best interest at heart. In the current climate, I feel like when I was an undergraduate, I was considered more of a financial necessity in the university’s financial model, than anything else.
Original post
by Jedi BB-8
Thanks for the questions and info.

During my undergrad, I’ve noticed some admins behaved in ways I’d describe unprofessional and twisted towards students, graduates, and even towards some academic staff. If they weren’t invested in me having a good quality student experience or support my employability, why would I care about their job security? It also felt like they had too much time on their hands. That said, I’m a fair person and I believe everyone who is willing and able to work should have opportunities to do so. But if someone’s approach to work is at odds with the values of the HE sector and their main actors (researchers, teachers, students), perhaps another field would be a better fit for them.

Of course work culture plays a role and there’re many support staff who are incredibly competent and good people. However, some academics argue that universities have become overstaffed with admins, which makes a careful reassessment necessary. My undergrad university went the other way around, first simplified some degree programme composition and assessments (they did so to my degree, in my view weakening its value), before restructuring governance and reducing admin roles, saying they had concerns about inefficiency (some admins worked more than others) and financial sustainability.

Many academics are also frustrated with the endless admin work in universities, feeling it takes away from research, supervision, and deep thinking. I recall a paper from a well-known scientist from a prestigious university saying that academics should push back against unnecessary bureaucratic requests to prevent them from expending further.

At the end of the day, if I’m paying off a student loan (and some more) worth hundreds of pounds on a monthly basis for two-three decades making it difficult for me to save for a house etc., I strongly prefer that my investment goes towards an education that benefits me, one that enhances my skillset and competitiveness in the job market, fosters a positive student-staff relationship, and supports staff (both academic and admin) who genuinely have my best interest at heart. In the current climate, I feel like when I was an undergraduate, I was considered more of a financial necessity in the university’s financial model, than anything else.

Thank you for your contribution.

What admin departments do you think have the most time on their hands? Why do you think that is?

Reply 50

Original post
by Wired_1800
Your points are fair.
I think there needs to be a root and branch reform of the sector to ensure that value is extracted. Although i agree with fee caps, I think £12,000 should be considered or even higher for certain courses. It makes no sense for a student studying a mickey mouse degree to be paying £9,000 alongside another student studying a top degree like medicine. To me, there needs to be a stratified approach where students pay for the intrinsic and extrinsic value of their degrees
The above should also come in place with capping of the wages of senior staff as it makes no sense that top administrators are being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds even higher than the Prime Minister.
Overall, the education system would remain the same way unless there are real changes.

Hey, I’m planning to attend Cardiff university in September and should I be worried if my course(psychology) isn’t planned to be cut off. Would this impact the quality of teaching in my course or only particular courses?

Reply 51

Original post
by Mayayyaya
Hey, I’m planning to attend Cardiff university in September and should I be worried if my course(psychology) isn’t planned to be cut off. Would this impact the quality of teaching in my course or only particular courses?

Hello.

Sorry, i am not a Cardiff Uni staff. Please reach out to the uni to understand the impact.

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