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David Starkey writes his early 21st C history today!

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Reply 20

Original post
by TheStupidMoon
I still haven't heard anything properly racist
Oh. Do you need a video of him screaming the 'N'-word at some black people?

Reply 21

Original post
by TheStupidMoon
That doesn't disprove there is a blob and a problem one at that.
As for Brexit it looks like it's been deliberately done badly.
I still haven't heard anything properly racist whether it's that or the out of context quote on "slaves".
I did find some funny clips like this while searching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj9dA6E3fJw

Cambridge seemed to take the opposite view
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53279273
Though a couple of years later he was giving a talk at cambridge to the conservatives
https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/25717

Not sure what youd call properly racist? His comments frequently seem to show prejudice/antagoism which is pretty much the definition of it.

Reply 22

Original post
by 2WheelGod
Oh. Do you need a video of him screaming the 'N'-word at some black people?

Oh, has he tried his hand at gansta rap lately?

Original post
by mqb2766
Cambridge seemed to take the opposite view
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53279273


That only shows what to think of cambridge not starkey.

Reply 23

Original post
by TheStupidMoon
That only shows what to think of cambridge not starkey.
Kinda like how a guilty verdict only shows what to think of the court, not the accused?🤔

Reply 24

Original post
by 2WheelGod
Kinda like how a guilty verdict only shows what to think of the court, not the accused?🤔

So what?
His comment "The academic and author told an online show that slavery was not genocide as "so many damn blacks" had survived."" is particularly true in a blunt manner.



I found this picture which shows how they were spread into other countries instead of being genocided in some cases their descendants getting "free" countries in the case of the Caribbean while the "white" working class people were killed off either through over work or violence.

Reply 25

Original post
by TheStupidMoon
So what?
His comment "The academic and author told an online show that slavery was not genocide as "so many damn blacks" had survived."" is particularly true in a blunt manner.

I found this picture which shows how they were spread into other countries instead of being genocided in some cases their descendants getting "free" countries in the case of the Caribbean while the "white" working class people were killed off either through over work or violence.

I suspect that the issue was not so much the accuracy of a claim that slavery necessarily constitutes genocide, but rather the racist nature of his response.

Hope this helps.

Reply 26

Original post
by 2WheelGod
No idea what "the blob" is, let alone how it would form a government.
"What's racist about Mr Starkey?"
All the racist stuff he says. Many academic institutions, museums, etc have cut ties with him because of it.
Here's another one. He claimed the Rochdale sex abuse ring perpetrators were "acting within their cultural norm - entrenched in the foothills of the Punjab or wherever it is".

I guess by stating this is racist you are making the argument it is untrue. Have you ever visited Punjab?

Reply 27

Original post
by Jebedee
I guess by stating this is racist you are making the argument it is untrue. Have you ever visited Punjab?

Are grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse a "cultural norm" in the Punjab?
No.

Is claiming that it is, racist?
Yes.

Reply 28

Original post
by 2WheelGod
Are grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse a "cultural norm" in the Punjab?
No.
Is claiming that it is, racist?
Yes.

What is your metric threshold for cultural norm exactly?

Reply 29

Original post
by TheStupidMoon
So what?
His comment "The academic and author told an online show that slavery was not genocide as "so many damn blacks" had survived."" is particularly true in a blunt manner.I found this picture which shows how they were spread into other countries instead of being genocided in some cases their descendants getting "free" countries in the case of the Caribbean while the "white" working class people were killed off either through over work or violence.

An estimated 4 million died as a result of the african slave trade, out of about 12-15 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Passage
So roughly 1 in 3 died and then a lot of the "conditions" they endured as slaves were horrendus. In that context, Id hope that a historian (starkey) would have the sense to realise that those remarks were unacceptable.

Reply 30

Original post
by Jebedee
What is your metric threshold for cultural norm exactly?

Something that is regarded as normal within a culture.
Normal is defined as - "an accepted standard or a way of behaving or doing things that most people agree with".

You appear to be arguing that "grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse" is "an accepted standard or a way of behaving or doing things that most people agree with" in the Punjab.

Reply 31

Original post
by 2WheelGod
Something that is regarded as normal within a culture.
Normal is defined as - "an accepted standard or a way of behaving or doing things that most people agree with".
You appear to be arguing that "grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse" is "an accepted standard or a way of behaving or doing things that most people agree with" in the Punjab.

So your issue is semantics with his choice of phrase? Do you deny they have a large grooming problem, even if considered distasteful by the masses?

Reply 32

Original post
by Jebedee
So your issue is semantics with his choice of phrase? Do you deny they have a large grooming problem, even if considered distasteful by the masses?

Yes, my issue is with what he said. What he said was racist.
The way we judge generally if someone is racist is by whether they say racist things. Kinda self explanatory.

"Do you deny they have a large grooming problem, even if considered distasteful by the masses?"
Yes, I agree that there is a large grooming problem in the UK, even if the majority disagree.
You do realise of course, that the majority of sexual grooming of underage girls in the UK is carried out by white, British men?

Is "grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse" an accepted standard or a way of behaving or doing things that most people agree with in the Punjab?
Clearly not, as a quick google would reveal.

The claim that "grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse" is a specifically Punjabi cultural issue is, by definition, racist.
Now, you can align yourself with that claim, or you can distance yourself from it. Your choice.
(edited 8 months ago)

Reply 33

Original post
by mqb2766
An estimated 4 million died as a result of the african slave trade, out of about 12-15 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Passage
So roughly 1 in 3 died and then a lot of the "conditions" they endured as slaves were horrendus. In that context, Id hope that a historian (starkey) would have the sense to realise that those remarks were unacceptable.

I would take wikipedia with a pinch of salt and the problems lie with slave traders so take it up with them. Bear in mind plenty of the working class would be treated like slaves and worked into early graves too so it's not as if they were deliberately targeting "blacks".

Reply 34

Original post
by 2WheelGod
Yes, my issue is with what he said. What he said was racist.
The way we judge generally if someone is racist is by whether they say racist things. Kinda self explanatory.
"Do you deny they have a large grooming problem, even if considered distasteful by the masses?"
Yes, I agree that there is a large grooming problem in the UK, even if the majority disagree.
You do realise of course, that the majority of sexual grooming of underage girls in the UK is carried out by white, British men?
Is "grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse" an accepted standard or a way of behaving or doing things that most people agree with in the Punjab?
Clearly not, as a quick google would reveal.
The claim that "grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse" is a specifically Punjabi cultural issue is, by definition, racist.
Now, you can align yourself with that claim, or you can distance yourself from it. Your choice.

Which is why I asked for your metric on what you would consider to be an accepted practice, which you didn't provide.

A simple Google search can show you plenty of comments from police chiefs and even the prime minister of Pakistan, blaming victims of grooming and rape for various reasons (clothes, being out without a male chaperone).

I'm sure some especially in the UK would say that it is at best condoned or at worst accepted, as all of these people are still in their jobs after the comments.

Reply 35

Original post
by Jebedee
Which is why I asked for your metric on what you would consider to be an accepted practice, which you didn't provide.
A simple Google search can show you plenty of comments from police chiefs and even the prime minister of Pakistan, blaming victims of grooming and rape for various reasons (clothes, being out without a male chaperone).
I'm sure some especially in the UK would say that it is at best condoned or at worst accepted, as all of these people are still in their jobs after the comments.

So not only you are still claiming that grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse is the cultural norm in the Punjab, but you are now claiming that it is condoned by senior police and political figures, including the Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif?
Some links would be good, thanks.

Reply 36

Original post
by 2WheelGod
So not only you are still claiming that grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse is the cultural norm in the Punjab, but you are now claiming that it is condoned by senior police and political figures, including the Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif?
Some links would be good, thanks.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/11/backlash-in-pakistan-as-police-appear-to-blame-woman-motorist-for-gang

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56660706.amp

Unless you're going to argue that they have become a progressive paradise within the last few years. I believe my point stands.

Reply 37

Original post
by Jebedee
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/11/backlash-in-pakistan-as-police-appear-to-blame-woman-motorist-for-gang
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56660706.amp
Unless you're going to argue that they have become a progressive paradise within the last few years. I believe my point stands.

From your own "evidence"...

"The gang-rape of a woman in front of her children after her car broke down on a motorway has prompted outrage and protests in Pakistan"
Cultural norms do not provoke outrage and protests amongst the population.

Also, those two articles do not deal with grooming gangs targeting vulnerable young girls for sexual abuse.

"I believe my point stands"
Not sure what your point is, tbh.

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