Trump's America heads into fascism - will the UK follow it?
Ok my question is will the UK follow it? Are we going to show any sort of wisdom or experience as a country and refuse to follow them down this path? Or could it happen by the next election? I see worrying trends like the power the right has on social media, and growing disdain for rigorous debate and intellectualism. Fascism is said to go hand in hand with anti intellectualism.
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Reply 1
Unless Reform win the next election then nah in my opinion, but maybe I'm being naïve.
Reply 2
Fascism? I pray not. I think that the word fascism is quite loosely used as an insult which muddies the water a bit.
In the terms I understand — a political movement urging the rebirth of a supposedly favoured nation through a strong leader, comfortable with the use of violence, often espousing a corporate state to minimise class friction, drawing on a romanticised sense of national history and mythology, I don’t see it.
Petty race bigotry is a serious worry but I am more concerned about pogroms and riots — Southport again but worse — than about an organised fascist state. There’s no mass party, no strong leader. I don’t find people around me have a romanticised sense of their history — if anything, I feel an outlier in remaining loyal to my grandparents’ values of God, Queen, Country and struggle to adapt to a world where so very much evil done in those names has been dug up and (I don’t know whether deservedly or not) has discredited the whole worldview. I do feel lost, and fear the ability to fall into the nostalgia that fascists prey on.
There are far too many brawling thugs, far too many disreputable politicians who try to shove our troubles off on anyone who looks slightly different, or believes other than, the majority, but those I know still hold them in contempt. Mr Farage looks more like a spiv than George Cole ever did on the old St Trinian’s, I wouldn’t trust him so far as I could toss him.
Our great advantage in my opinion is that we have a strong Naval and maritime tradition — the Navy breeds exploration, new cultural encounters, individual initiative and a certain measure of roving nonconformity to make a man go to sea. Those aren’t fascist virtues.
In the terms I understand — a political movement urging the rebirth of a supposedly favoured nation through a strong leader, comfortable with the use of violence, often espousing a corporate state to minimise class friction, drawing on a romanticised sense of national history and mythology, I don’t see it.
Petty race bigotry is a serious worry but I am more concerned about pogroms and riots — Southport again but worse — than about an organised fascist state. There’s no mass party, no strong leader. I don’t find people around me have a romanticised sense of their history — if anything, I feel an outlier in remaining loyal to my grandparents’ values of God, Queen, Country and struggle to adapt to a world where so very much evil done in those names has been dug up and (I don’t know whether deservedly or not) has discredited the whole worldview. I do feel lost, and fear the ability to fall into the nostalgia that fascists prey on.
There are far too many brawling thugs, far too many disreputable politicians who try to shove our troubles off on anyone who looks slightly different, or believes other than, the majority, but those I know still hold them in contempt. Mr Farage looks more like a spiv than George Cole ever did on the old St Trinian’s, I wouldn’t trust him so far as I could toss him.
Our great advantage in my opinion is that we have a strong Naval and maritime tradition — the Navy breeds exploration, new cultural encounters, individual initiative and a certain measure of roving nonconformity to make a man go to sea. Those aren’t fascist virtues.
Original post
by EuropeanIAmOk my question is will the UK follow it? Are we going to show any sort of wisdom or experience as a country and refuse to follow them down this path? Or could it happen by the next election? I see worrying trends like the power the right has on social media, and growing disdain for rigorous debate and intellectualism. Fascism is said to go hand in hand with anti intellectualism.
Why do you think Trump turn the US government into fascism? Would be nice, if you can reason your thesis.
Reply 4
The UK think they are apart of America. Yes you will follow the leader.
Reply 5
Original post
by nonchalant-The UK think they are apart of America. Yes you will follow the leader.
While there certainly are a minority of Brits with reactionary political views who would follow a criminal authoritarian like Trump, most British people place a lot of value in our free open democratic society.
Reply 6
Original post
by Gazpacho.While there certainly are a minority of Brits with reactionary political views who would follow a criminal authoritarian like Trump, most British people place a lot of value in our free open democratic society.
brits are followers. No mind of their own.
Reply 7
Original post
by Gazpacho.A thoughtful and erudite retort that truly demonstrates your independence of mind.
Cool. And brits are still followers.
Reply 8
Original post
by Gazpacho.You sound like an NPC stuck in a loop.
Are you able to articulate any constructive thoughts to the topic at hand?
Are you able to articulate any constructive thoughts to the topic at hand?
And it doesn't just stop at politics. Brits are highly influenced by Americans, down to how the talk, slang and lingo. The UK has an identity crisis, wannabe Americans. Eyes glued on Americans and their next step, they know more about American politics then their own. I agree with OP!
Reply 9
17
Original post
by nonchalant-And it doesn't just stop at politics. Brits are highly influenced by Americans, down to how the talk, slang and lingo. It's sickening. The UK has an identity crisis, wannabe Americans. Eyes glued on Americans and their next step, they know more about American politics then their own. I agree with OP, no wisdom at all.
Which nationality are you, out of interest?
Reply 10
17
While we're not quite there yet, "Fascism: A History" by Roger Eatwell does show how close we're getting to a point of no return.
Reply 11
Original post
by nonchalant-And it doesn't just stop at politics. Brits are highly influenced by Americans, down to how the talk, slang and lingo. It's sickening. The UK has an identity crisis, wannabe Americans. Eyes glued on Americans and their next step, they know more about American politics then their own. I agree with OP, no wisdom at all.
This is all Trump talk, slang and lingo, no wisdom at all.
Current Trump America is all about breeding, endless unsustainable consumption, socio-political chaos and entertainment.
For the majority of Europeans, this is a real time lesson of how not to be.
Reply 12
Original post
by KallistoWhy do you think Trump turn the US government into fascism? Would be nice, if you can reason your thesis.
Trump obviously won't turn the US government fully fascist, obviously a complete breakdown in democracy would not be possible due to the power structure in the US
However, the warning signs are starting to show.
His 'strongman' persona, as if he is the saviour of America is extremely worrying (despite his obvious complete idiocy), and is typical of a fascist state.
Attacks on media - calling the press 'the enemy of the people' is an obvious attack on free speech, and shows Trump's anger at people reporting on his numerous extremely dubious actions (falsifying business records, sexual assault).
Control of the courts - while he obviously does not have power over the court ruling system, we have seen numerous times already how he has tried to take advantage and influence the courts system beyond his legal power - such as trying to pardon himself right now, and also claims he will pardon people like Diddy.
Immigration stance - His extreme MAGA mentality and 'America First' mindset are detrimental to the economy, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you the huge benefit immigrants have to the economy (such as over 8 million of them in the labour workforce, or the fact they net contribute 100 billion to the government as they pay tax yet do not reap the rewards of government services such as medicare)
Complete undermining of his political opponents and the political system - Capitol riot, promising to 'go after' political opponents - obviously extremely worrying. Recently, a Yale professor fled the country after she wrote a book warning against Trump - she is also conveniently a professor on Fascism.
So while he is not a dictator at present of course, it is plain to see the threat which Trump holds for not only the US, but also the world.
Reply 13
21
Original post
by Jedi BB-8This is all Trump talk, slang and lingo, no wisdom at all.
Current Trump America is all about breeding, endless unsustainable consumption, socio-political chaos and entertainment.
For the majority of Europeans, this is a real time lesson of how not to be.
Current Trump America is all about breeding, endless unsustainable consumption, socio-political chaos and entertainment.
For the majority of Europeans, this is a real time lesson of how not to be.
Pretty much. I guess the problem is sorting out the popularist patriotism from the right / authoritarian / ... , though at times they do go hand in hand. So middleton (who really should pay his £1M tax bill and not assault police, allegedly) is proposing a new military guard unit for london on the back of his support for reform and trump sending in the guards/marines to LA.
https://bsky.app/profile/parodypm.bsky.social/post/3lrcvzkayc22f
Cant think anything that might go wrong. Certainly nothing like the sas golden pass in afghanistan.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07g40x1v53o
Be careful what / who you align with.
(edited 9 months ago)
Reply 14
I think Trump being elected needed to happen. Just look at what the alternative would have been. I don't agree with everything he does but I can think of many positives.
We do need something similar in the UK but I do think Reform have shot themselves in the foot by booting Rupert Lowe out of the party. He was by far their best MP. I'd like to think he could form a party of his own that could win the 2029 election but I think that's too optimistic.
We do need something similar in the UK but I do think Reform have shot themselves in the foot by booting Rupert Lowe out of the party. He was by far their best MP. I'd like to think he could form a party of his own that could win the 2029 election but I think that's too optimistic.
Reply 15
Original post
by Mr ADBI think Trump being elected needed to happen. Just look at what the alternative would have been. I don't agree with everything he does but I can think of many positives.
We do need something similar in the UK but I do think Reform have shot themselves in the foot by booting Rupert Lowe out of the party. He was by far their best MP. I'd like to think he could form a party of his own that could win the 2029 election but I think that's too optimistic.
We do need something similar in the UK but I do think Reform have shot themselves in the foot by booting Rupert Lowe out of the party. He was by far their best MP. I'd like to think he could form a party of his own that could win the 2029 election but I think that's too optimistic.
So destroying the economy, the climate, global diplomacy and also the fact he is a sex offender and child predator? Great leadership qualities to be fair.
Reply 16
Original post
by Mr ADBI think Trump being elected needed to happen. Just look at what the alternative would have been. I don't agree with everything he does but I can think of many positives.
We do need something similar in the UK but I do think Reform have shot themselves in the foot by booting Rupert Lowe out of the party. He was by far their best MP. I'd like to think he could form a party of his own that could win the 2029 election but I think that's too optimistic.
We do need something similar in the UK but I do think Reform have shot themselves in the foot by booting Rupert Lowe out of the party. He was by far their best MP. I'd like to think he could form a party of his own that could win the 2029 election but I think that's too optimistic.
We are seeing the Trump regime pushing America to authoritarianism as they attack the checks and balances that are integral to a functioning democracy, undermine the rule of law, have masked agents of the state grabbing people off the street, threaten to invade long-standing allies, threatening to have politicians that question Trump arrested, push through a budget that constitutes a massive transfer of wealth from those on low incomes to the wealthiest, etc. Meanwhile Trump is using his presidency to enrich himself and his family.
Can you please explain why the alternative was so much worse.
Please also explain why you'd like to see this in the UK as what is happening in America is fundamentally at odds with British values.
Reply 17
Original post
by isaac123444566So destroying the economy, the climate, global diplomacy and also the fact he is a sex offender and child predator? Great leadership qualities to be fair.
I'm not saying I agree with everything he's done but climate change is a scam and he's never been convicted of those things you say he is.
Original post
by Gazpacho.We are seeing the Trump regime pushing America to authoritarianism as they attack the checks and balances that are integral to a functioning democracy, undermine the rule of law, have masked agents of the state grabbing people off the street, threaten to invade long-standing allies, threatening to have politicians that question Trump arrested, push through a budget that constitutes a massive transfer of wealth from those on low incomes to the wealthiest, etc. Meanwhile Trump is using his presidency to enrich himself and his family.
Can you please explain why the alternative was so much worse.
Please also explain why you'd like to see this in the UK as what is happening in America is fundamentally at odds with British values.
Can you please explain why the alternative was so much worse.
Please also explain why you'd like to see this in the UK as what is happening in America is fundamentally at odds with British values.
The alternative was everything that's wrong with society these days. We need to stand up to woke. I'm not saying we need someone like Trump but we need someone who goes against all that nonsense. Rupert Lowe would certainly get my vote to be Prime Minister.
Reply 18
Original post
by Mr ADBThe alternative was everything that's wrong with society these days. We need to stand up to woke. I'm not saying we need someone like Trump but we need someone who goes against all that nonsense. Rupert Lowe would certainly get my vote to be Prime Minister.
That you desire authoritarianism because there are one too many gay prides is bizarre.
A classic feature of countries that undergo democratic collapse is to depict minority groups as internal enemies in the eyes of their supporters and then use state apparatus to target them to legitimise creeping authoritarianism. We are seeing this in the way Trump has targeted trans people and undocumented workers. If you know your 20th Century history, you'll know it does not stop there. As the saying goes:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
It is a salient reminder that people need to be careful what they wish for.
Reply 19
Original post
by Gazpacho.That you desire authoritarianism because there are one too many gay prides is bizarre.
A classic feature of countries that undergo democratic collapse is to depict minority groups as internal enemies in the eyes of their supporters and then use state apparatus to target them to legitimise creeping authoritarianism. We are seeing this in the way Trump has targeted trans people and undocumented workers. If you know your 20th Century history, you'll know it does not stop there. As the saying goes:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
It is a salient reminder that people need to be careful what they wish for.
A classic feature of countries that undergo democratic collapse is to depict minority groups as internal enemies in the eyes of their supporters and then use state apparatus to target them to legitimise creeping authoritarianism. We are seeing this in the way Trump has targeted trans people and undocumented workers. If you know your 20th Century history, you'll know it does not stop there. As the saying goes:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
It is a salient reminder that people need to be careful what they wish for.
Nothing to do with gay pride. I believe in free speech and don't think someone should lose their livelihood for having an opinion.
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