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Should the UK rejoin the EU?

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Reply 40

Original post
by Supermature
Why not simply make the point?
Likening the EU to a ship that has rats in the bilge, only stale bread and Red Bull, a slow leak, and a smokey engine does not make it seem like an attractive proposition, does it?

Look, I'm not saying it was the right way to make the point, I'm just saying you could've addressed his point

Reply 41

Original post
by isaac123444566
Look, I'm not saying it was the right way to make the point, I'm just saying you could've addressed his point
And how exactly do you interpret the point that you say should be addressed?

Reply 42

Original post
by Supermature
And how exactly do you interpret the point that you say should be addressed?

Well, I think you should address his argument which is that re-joining the EU would be a chance to better the situation in the UK. It's not for me to answer, because I both agree with him and also you were the one arguing him, I just found it annoying you chose to deflect his point as being confusing rather than just answering it, hence why I asked you how you could not understand it.

Reply 43

Original post
by isaac123444566
Well, I think you should address his argument which is that re-joining the EU would be a chance to better the situation in the UK. It's not for me to answer, because I both agree with him and also you were the one arguing him, I just found it annoying you chose to deflect his point as being confusing rather than just answering it, hence why I asked you how you could not understand it.
I sensed that the post was intended to be disputatious, if not provocative, starting as it did with the comment: "Hmm, I see you're still struggling with basic concepts." It was thus worthy of the response that I gave it.

If the point of the post is merely to argue that re-joining the EU would "be a chance to better the situation in the UK" then I have addressed that argument several times already, stating the specific circumstances in which rejoining might (hypothetically) be appropriate.

Reply 44

I don't think Britain's problems were entirely the fault of the EU but as the referendum was called we had to vote out.

Without listening to any politicians or so called experts I can see with my own eyes that Britain is full. In my lifetime I've seen countless new homes and new roads get built. Yet we have a housing shortage and roads have never been so congested.

Years ago when I'd look for somewhere to rent there were several properties to choose from that I'd happily live in. The last time I did that, which was after the floodgates opened most properties were being snapped up before I could view them.

Like others have mentioned if all countries were on an equal footing then it could work. Instead we gave Eastern European countries the opportunity to come to the UK in the knowledge they'd easily get work thanks to companies box ticking and make a British wage that would set them up nicely should they want to return to their home country. What we got out of that deal was the opportunity to go to an Eastern European country in the knowledge they put their own people first and if we were to land a job it would give a salary that would go very far in the UK should we wish to return. A great deal for the Eastern Europeans, not so good for us Brits.

Reply 45

Original post
by Mr ADB
I don't think Britain's problems were entirely the fault of the EU but as the referendum was called we had to vote out.
Without listening to any politicians or so called experts I can see with my own eyes that Britain is full. In my lifetime I've seen countless new homes and new roads get built. Yet we have a housing shortage and roads have never been so congested.
Years ago when I'd look for somewhere to rent there were several properties to choose from that I'd happily live in. The last time I did that, which was after the floodgates opened most properties were being snapped up before I could view them.
Like others have mentioned if all countries were on an equal footing then it could work. Instead we gave Eastern European countries the opportunity to come to the UK in the knowledge they'd easily get work thanks to companies box ticking and make a British wage that would set them up nicely should they want to return to their home country. What we got out of that deal was the opportunity to go to an Eastern European country in the knowledge they put their own people first and if we were to land a job it would give a salary that would go very far in the UK should we wish to return. A great deal for the Eastern Europeans, not so good for us Brits.
Britain is not 'full,' the underinvestment by the government for housing is not a result of immigrants, the reason is that the wealthy continually accrue assets, leaving the middle class with nothing. Your empirical evidence of 'countless' houses being built is not relevant, it does not back up the stats.

Once again, the reason the UK has a lack of housing is nothing to do with immigrants - it's to do with the governments lack of funding for houses and the lack of regulations in place to stop companies like Blackrock buying up 500 million pounds worth of houses (they have just planned a new development in West London). This ruins home ownership for the middle class, because the ones owning all of the housing just rent them out.

You do realise the salary to cost of living ratio in the UK is half of that in Eastern Europe (1.19 in UK up to 2.4 in Romania and Bulgaria), meaning you get twice as good of a quality of life in Eastern Europe as you do in the UK for the same salary. Not to mention London - which is at 1.06 - with 94% of take-home pay being paid towards rent/bills/food etc. So actually, your point is completely irrelevant.

Reply 46

Original post
by isaac123444566
Britain is not 'full,' the underinvestment by the government for housing is not a result of immigrants, the reason is that the wealthy continually accrue assets, leaving the middle class with nothing. Your empirical evidence of 'countless' houses being built is not relevant, it does not back up the stats.
Once again, the reason the UK has a lack of housing is nothing to do with immigrants - it's to do with the governments lack of funding for houses and the lack of regulations in place to stop companies like Blackrock buying up 500 million pounds worth of houses (they have just planned a new development in West London). This ruins home ownership for the middle class, because the ones owning all of the housing just rent them out.
You do realise the salary to cost of living ratio in the UK is half of that in Eastern Europe (1.19 in UK up to 2.4 in Romania and Bulgaria), meaning you get twice as good of a quality of life in Eastern Europe as you do in the UK for the same salary. Not to mention London - which is at 1.06 - with 94% of take-home pay being paid towards rent/bills/food etc. So actually, your point is completely irrelevant.

If the population number remained stable there wouldn't be a need to build all these new homes. We need to stop immigration until the population goes down to a more reasonable number and then have a one in one out policy. I have no problems with immigrants themselves but we can't have the whole world living on this small island.

If quality of life in Eastern Europe is so much better then why would they come to the UK? We'd be going there instead if that was the case.
Original post
by solitary-dispute
Should the UK rejoin the EU?


In retrospect and in terms of UK's economy it was a silly idea to leave the EU anyway. 100% yes. And I say this an Non-British.

Reply 48

Original post
by Supermature
Why not simply make the point?
Likening the EU to a ship that has rats in the bilge, only stale bread and Red Bull, a slow leak, and a smokey engine does not make it seem like an attractive proposition, does it?

*sigh*
I'll try to help out again.
You claimed that those who favour rejoining think "all is well with the EU".
The EU clearly is not perfect - however, it is a far better proposition than what we currently have, despite its failings.
I used a very clear and simple analogy to help you understand what that means in practical terms. Apologies if it was too taxing.

(Most ships have rats in the bilge and a slow leak (hence bilge pumps), even luxurious cruise liners. Many people love energy drinks, some dislike them. Stale bread is not great, but it can be used in some pretty wonderful dishes)

Reply 49

Original post
by Mr ADB
If the population number remained stable there wouldn't be a need to build all these new homes. We need to stop immigration until the population goes down to a more reasonable number and then have a one in one out policy. I have no problems with immigrants themselves but we can't have the whole world living on this small island.
If quality of life in Eastern Europe is so much better then why would they come to the UK? We'd be going there instead if that was the case.
"If the population number remained stable there wouldn't be a need to build all these new homes"
Yes there would, because there is a current shortage of decent, affordable housing.

"I have no problems with immigrants themselves but we can't have the whole world living on this small island."
That's quite the non-sequitur.

"We'd be going there instead if that was the case."
Generally, British people are possibly the world's greatest monoglots. That can be a major barrier to relocation.

Reply 50

Original post
by Mr ADB
If the population number remained stable there wouldn't be a need to build all these new homes. We need to stop immigration until the population goes down to a more reasonable number and then have a one in one out policy. I have no problems with immigrants themselves but we can't have the whole world living on this small island.
If quality of life in Eastern Europe is so much better then why would they come to the UK? We'd be going there instead if that was the case.

No, population number 'remaining stable' would be absolutely terrible for the economy. Do you realise that the UK is one of the most aging populations in the world? If the population were to remain stable, the rate at which our young workforce would decrease would be amplified hugely. By 2043, over 17 million people in the UK will be over 65 (that's one quarter). If we stop allowing immigrants in (with over 70% of them being under 30, and 90% under 45), then major sectors such as care, construction and nursing will completely deteriorate, and there will be no-one to take care of our old people, only putting more strain on the NHS and public funding - which will take money away from housing. Over 35% of people taking care of our old people are from abroad.

'Have the whole world living on our small island' What does that even mean? You can't just hear and parrot around useless phrases because you have no idea what they mean.

No, because as @2WheelGod said, the British population are extremely resistant to moving abroad.

Reply 51

Original post
by isaac123444566
No, population number 'remaining stable' would be absolutely terrible for the economy. Do you realise that the UK is one of the most aging populations in the world? If the population were to remain stable, the rate at which our young workforce would decrease would be amplified hugely. By 2043, over 17 million people in the UK will be over 65 (that's one quarter). If we stop allowing immigrants in (with over 70% of them being under 30, and 90% under 45), then major sectors such as care, construction and nursing will completely deteriorate, and there will be no-one to take care of our old people, only putting more strain on the NHS and public funding - which will take money away from housing. Over 35% of people taking care of our old people are from abroad.
'Have the whole world living on our small island' What does that even mean? You can't just hear and parrot around useless phrases because you have no idea what they mean.
No, because as @2WheelGod said, the British population are extremely resistant to moving abroad.

"the British population are extremely resistant to moving abroad"
tbf, if they are wealthy enough to not have to work there, and the area contains enough ex-pat facilities with Brit-oriented food, drink and socialising, provided by English speaking staff - they are often happy to move abroad.

Reply 52

Original post
by 2WheelGod
"the British population are extremely resistant to moving abroad"
tbf, if they are wealthy enough to not have to work there, and the area contains enough ex-pat facilities with Brit-oriented food, drink and socialising, provided by English speaking staff - they are often happy to move abroad.

Yeah that's fair enough, but not many Brits are. Also, it seems the argument made by the other person is that it's ordinary working class people affected by immigration (I don't believe this). He is arguing that people can't afford housing or are priced out, which would imply he is not referring to migrants 'ruining' the UK for the wealthy. (I don't agree with him of course, but I don't think he's referring to the rich)

Reply 53

Original post
by 2WheelGod
*sigh*
I'll try to help out again.
You claimed that those who favour rejoining think "all is well with the EU".
The EU clearly is not perfect - however, it is a far better proposition than what we currently have, despite its failings.
I used a very clear and simple analogy to help you understand what that means in practical terms. Apologies if it was too taxing.
(Most ships have rats in the bilge and a slow leak (hence bilge pumps), even luxurious cruise liners. Many people love energy drinks, some dislike them. Stale bread is not great, but it can be used in some pretty wonderful dishes)

Why do you persist in these forlorn attempts to insult anyone whose opinion is not perfectly aligned with your own?

Reply 54

Original post
by Supermature
Why do you persist in these forlorn attempts to insult anyone whose opinion is not perfectly aligned with your own?

I'm not trying to insult you. I am merely trying to help you understand.
Although I agree that my attempts may be forlorn.

Reply 55

This thread is brilliant - it's like travelling back in TSR time! Is that bloke who used to wang on about Islam going to make an appearance?

Reply 56

Original post
by Reality Check
This thread is brilliant - it's like travelling back in TSR time! Is that bloke who used to wang on about Islam going to make an appearance?

Wow, I'm quite new to TSR, is there someone going around flinging islamaphobic comments about the 'downfall of britain'?!

Reply 57

Original post
by isaac123444566
Wow, I'm quite new to TSR, is there someone going around flinging islamaphobic comments about the 'downfall of britain'?!

Oh, this is quite some time ago. A very prolific poster - someone will remember his name, I'm sure. Intelligent, but belligerent and unwilling to listen to the views of others. In other words, a natural regular in D&CA :smile:

Reply 58

Original post
by Reality Check
Oh, this is quite some time ago - I think he was banned actually, or left anyway. A very prolific poster - someone will remember his name, I'm sure. Intelligent, but belligerent and unwilling to listen to the views of others. In other words, a natural regular in D&CA :smile:

Oh right haha, sad I missed him while he was rampaging across TSR

Reply 59

Original post
by 2WheelGod
I'm not trying to insult you. I am merely trying to help you understand.
Although I agree that my attempts may be forlorn.

Understand what?

I remain puzzled as to what it is that you think I don't understand. I am, however, readily able to discern when someone is being disingenuous and - if I may borrow a phrase from another recent post - when someone is "belligerent and unwilling to listen to the views of others".

If you read my posts carefully, and interpret them correctly, you will see that I am arguing in favour of a closer trading relationship with EU countries similar (but not identical) to that advocated by a group of MPs in 2019, which included Stephen Kinnock, a minister in the current Labour Government. This relationship was summed up thus: "...stepping out of the EU political integration project and towards the popular and fruitful common market relationship that the UK enjoyed with Europe in the 1970s and 1980s."

It is possible that you genuinely do not recognise how the EU has changed over the years, and the impact that has had on attitudes to the European project.

In reality, we will not be rejoining the EU in the foreseeable future, so our debate here is purely academic. There is, therefore, no need for belligerence or acrimony.
(edited 10 months ago)

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