What's it really like being a Barrister...
Hi!
So my son is in his second year at a Cardiff Uni doing his LLB and is thinking of doing his BTC there (20% off so seems a no brainer). As dutiful parents we attempted to get him to chat to a Barrister and we were lucky that a friend of a friend of a friend was happy to speak to him. This is individual is at a London Chambers in Commercial Law, being called to the Bar in the late 00s.
Unfortunately, this individual painted a very grim picture which has put our son off. He explained that almost all Barristers are on the spectrum (!), that it's highly highly stressful, with work regularly being given the day before the case. Everyone works 18 hour days and its basically a very miserable and stressful life. He advised my son to avoid the profession like the plague!!
I dont know any other Barristers, so am on here to see if there is perhaps a more neutral or even positive viewpoint! My son is bright, but he's not super bright that he's classed as on the spectrum!
I think he probably got this individual at a bad time as surely life as a Barrister can't be that bad! Appreciate certain areas and chambers (and definitely level) will play a part but would love to hear from any Barristers (London or regional) at any level who may be able to balance this out as right now, he's been put off, understandably!!
Thanks.
So my son is in his second year at a Cardiff Uni doing his LLB and is thinking of doing his BTC there (20% off so seems a no brainer). As dutiful parents we attempted to get him to chat to a Barrister and we were lucky that a friend of a friend of a friend was happy to speak to him. This is individual is at a London Chambers in Commercial Law, being called to the Bar in the late 00s.
Unfortunately, this individual painted a very grim picture which has put our son off. He explained that almost all Barristers are on the spectrum (!), that it's highly highly stressful, with work regularly being given the day before the case. Everyone works 18 hour days and its basically a very miserable and stressful life. He advised my son to avoid the profession like the plague!!
I dont know any other Barristers, so am on here to see if there is perhaps a more neutral or even positive viewpoint! My son is bright, but he's not super bright that he's classed as on the spectrum!
I think he probably got this individual at a bad time as surely life as a Barrister can't be that bad! Appreciate certain areas and chambers (and definitely level) will play a part but would love to hear from any Barristers (London or regional) at any level who may be able to balance this out as right now, he's been put off, understandably!!
Thanks.
Reply 1
It's not that interesting... You just sit there all day and people randomly grab you so they don't fall down the stairs.
Oh wait that's a banister
Oh wait that's a banister
Reply 2
It varies quite a lot between the different specialisms, but generally your day to day consists of:
Getting commerical work at the last minute is a little odd - I do commerical chancery and almost all of my cases come in a good deal earlier. Last minute are the ones I accept because I have time on my hands and/or there's some nice stuff in the John Lewis basket I would quite like to order. I was called mid 2010s.
The work is indeed stressful - not all the time, but the peaks are pretty damn high. They also do tend to correlate with when the amount of work is also high. The amount of work people do varies depending on them personally, and indeed on how much the chambers pushes them - self-employment means people often overcompensate when they have downtime because of financial worry which leads to taking on way too many cases, the chickens all come home to roost at the same time and then you may well be left with a few very nasty days / weeks, depending on if things can actually be moved. There are certainly people in chambers who work stupid hours which I could never fathom agreeing too. And indeed, during trial most people do work crazy hours because you never know what might happen.
As to whether all barristers are on the spectrum, I would simply say we all have our little eccentricities, and that those are a bit more intense at the bar (myself included).
•
Hearings or court appearences (a lot for something like crime, not very many at all for commerical law and even fewer for what we call chancery work). These vary from proper full hearings of the claim, to interlocutory or procedural skirmishes, as well as a few truly pointless "pop up for ten minutes and then go home" occasions.
•
Drafting documents, or reading the underlying documents to allow you to draft them. These can be formal documents for the court, letters to the opposing side, or documetns adivsing your clients. Each have quite a different style.
•
Attending meetings with clients (whether they be members of the public, or just the solicitor clients)
•
Various small off the cuff bits of work - for example, reviewing emails on existing cases that people want your take on before they responsd, which would normally be done via email or quick phone calls.
•
Depending on how your chambers works, reveiwing new cases to provide a quote - some places will only do this if it is a bit niche or clashes with your other cases, but my chambers does this for basically everything.
Getting commerical work at the last minute is a little odd - I do commerical chancery and almost all of my cases come in a good deal earlier. Last minute are the ones I accept because I have time on my hands and/or there's some nice stuff in the John Lewis basket I would quite like to order. I was called mid 2010s.
The work is indeed stressful - not all the time, but the peaks are pretty damn high. They also do tend to correlate with when the amount of work is also high. The amount of work people do varies depending on them personally, and indeed on how much the chambers pushes them - self-employment means people often overcompensate when they have downtime because of financial worry which leads to taking on way too many cases, the chickens all come home to roost at the same time and then you may well be left with a few very nasty days / weeks, depending on if things can actually be moved. There are certainly people in chambers who work stupid hours which I could never fathom agreeing too. And indeed, during trial most people do work crazy hours because you never know what might happen.
As to whether all barristers are on the spectrum, I would simply say we all have our little eccentricities, and that those are a bit more intense at the bar (myself included).
Reply 3
11
Original post
by BlayzeIt varies quite a lot between the different specialisms, but generally your day to day consists of:
Getting commerical work at the last minute is a little odd - I do commerical chancery and almost all of my cases come in a good deal earlier. Last minute are the ones I accept because I have time on my hands and/or there's some nice stuff in the John Lewis basket I would quite like to order. I was called mid 2010s.
The work is indeed stressful - not all the time, but the peaks are pretty damn high. They also do tend to correlate with when the amount of work is also high. The amount of work people do varies depending on them personally, and indeed on how much the chambers pushes them - self-employment means people often overcompensate when they have downtime because of financial worry which leads to taking on way too many cases, the chickens all come home to roost at the same time and then you may well be left with a few very nasty days / weeks, depending on if things can actually be moved. There are certainly people in chambers who work stupid hours which I could never fathom agreeing too. And indeed, during trial most people do work crazy hours because you never know what might happen.
As to whether all barristers are on the spectrum, I would simply say we all have our little eccentricities, and that those are a bit more intense at the bar (myself included).
•
Hearings or court appearences (a lot for something like crime, not very many at all for commerical law and even fewer for what we call chancery work). These vary from proper full hearings of the claim, to interlocutory or procedural skirmishes, as well as a few truly pointless "pop up for ten minutes and then go home" occasions.
•
Drafting documents, or reading the underlying documents to allow you to draft them. These can be formal documents for the court, letters to the opposing side, or documetns adivsing your clients. Each have quite a different style.
•
Attending meetings with clients (whether they be members of the public, or just the solicitor clients)
•
Various small off the cuff bits of work - for example, reviewing emails on existing cases that people want your take on before they responsd, which would normally be done via email or quick phone calls.
•
Depending on how your chambers works, reveiwing new cases to provide a quote - some places will only do this if it is a bit niche or clashes with your other cases, but my chambers does this for basically everything.
Getting commerical work at the last minute is a little odd - I do commerical chancery and almost all of my cases come in a good deal earlier. Last minute are the ones I accept because I have time on my hands and/or there's some nice stuff in the John Lewis basket I would quite like to order. I was called mid 2010s.
The work is indeed stressful - not all the time, but the peaks are pretty damn high. They also do tend to correlate with when the amount of work is also high. The amount of work people do varies depending on them personally, and indeed on how much the chambers pushes them - self-employment means people often overcompensate when they have downtime because of financial worry which leads to taking on way too many cases, the chickens all come home to roost at the same time and then you may well be left with a few very nasty days / weeks, depending on if things can actually be moved. There are certainly people in chambers who work stupid hours which I could never fathom agreeing too. And indeed, during trial most people do work crazy hours because you never know what might happen.
As to whether all barristers are on the spectrum, I would simply say we all have our little eccentricities, and that those are a bit more intense at the bar (myself included).
Incredibly helpful. Thank you.
Reply 4
Blayze's post is very helpful, and pretty much hits all of the nails on the head. I don't know what has happened with the barrister that you're talking about, but he's either projecting other areas of practice or he has a horribly mismanaged practice. I don't believe he works 18 hour days and gets work at the last minute as a commercial practitioner of that level of call. The spectrum comment is nonsense.
Being a barrister is not for most people. It is hard work. It is stressful, both in terms of workload and pressure. Being self employed in the way that barristers tend to be is not a positive for a lot of people, because you do have a lot of the downsides of self employed work (no pension, no employment rights etc) with some of the downsides of employed work in that your practice is managed by clerks and, particularly early on, you will do the work that they tell you to do. There is particularly hard graft required early on if you want to be successful. You will, by default, be given at a lot of work that no one else wants to do, and you will do it because you're bottom of the tree. That doesn't last all that long in the grand scheme of your career, but it can be tough early on. The lack of routine is also a problem for a lot of people, and it can cause problems with relationships (both social and romantic) because there will be times when you're just unavailable, sometimes at very short notice. Most people are not suited to everything I've just written.
Balanced against all of that is what the job is when you are suited to it. There will always be times when your workload is borderline (or actually) unmanageable, whether that's during trials as Blayze said, or just at other times. That brings with it stress, and that can't be avoided. It should reduce as you get more senior, but it doesn't ever go away. But I don't get stressed with the pressure of the work. I enjoy it. When you are in court/tribunal representing a client, it is a heavy responsibility to run their case to give them the best chance of success. But if you want to be in those positions, it's a massive thrill. It's the same for me when I'm at any stage of a case and discussing strategy and approach with my clients. I want to be the one formulating that strategy. I want that pressure. I compared it recently to the sort of mentality you need to be someone who takes a penalty in a shootout. It's not so much your confidence in your own ability as it is the willingness to take on that responsibility. If you have that mentality, you can thrive on this work rather than being burdened by it.
Practically, I have spent my time building good relationships with my clerks and have built up my name and reputation both within my own chambers and with solicitors. As a result, I now have much more flexibility with my work and the time I spend doing other things. I now do spend a very solid proportion of my time each other on holiday or not working. Far more than I'd be able to do in paid employment. And I still earn a lot of money relatively speaking, which means my wife and I don't really need to worry about money. Part of that is us being good at managing our finances (something that barristers are notoriously bad at), but as a barrister you should be earning enough quite quickly to be financially secure. I spend enough time with my wife, my kids and my friends, though you are always looking to improve that balance. My routine is obviously variable. There are times I have to be away with work. There are times when I just have to be working at home and don't have much time to do anything else. But then there are times, sometimes days and weeks in a row, where I am very present at home and have the flexibility to do the school run, cook etc. Again, that has gotten better the more senior I have become. It is something you get better at, even if the periods of high workload don't go away. I now consider myself to have a very good work/life balance.
Basically, this job absolutely isn't for most people. It's competitive and requires hard work. But it's pretty difficult to find a job worth doing that isn't either of those things. Personally I couldn't imagine this not being my job, but then I am suited to it. Your son just needs to decide if he is.
All of that said, has your son done any mini pupillages? He should prioritise it if he hasn't. That will give him an opportunity to observe and speak to actual practising barristers doing their day to day job. It's really worth his time to expose himself to that to try gain more experience, insight, and a range of views.
Being a barrister is not for most people. It is hard work. It is stressful, both in terms of workload and pressure. Being self employed in the way that barristers tend to be is not a positive for a lot of people, because you do have a lot of the downsides of self employed work (no pension, no employment rights etc) with some of the downsides of employed work in that your practice is managed by clerks and, particularly early on, you will do the work that they tell you to do. There is particularly hard graft required early on if you want to be successful. You will, by default, be given at a lot of work that no one else wants to do, and you will do it because you're bottom of the tree. That doesn't last all that long in the grand scheme of your career, but it can be tough early on. The lack of routine is also a problem for a lot of people, and it can cause problems with relationships (both social and romantic) because there will be times when you're just unavailable, sometimes at very short notice. Most people are not suited to everything I've just written.
Balanced against all of that is what the job is when you are suited to it. There will always be times when your workload is borderline (or actually) unmanageable, whether that's during trials as Blayze said, or just at other times. That brings with it stress, and that can't be avoided. It should reduce as you get more senior, but it doesn't ever go away. But I don't get stressed with the pressure of the work. I enjoy it. When you are in court/tribunal representing a client, it is a heavy responsibility to run their case to give them the best chance of success. But if you want to be in those positions, it's a massive thrill. It's the same for me when I'm at any stage of a case and discussing strategy and approach with my clients. I want to be the one formulating that strategy. I want that pressure. I compared it recently to the sort of mentality you need to be someone who takes a penalty in a shootout. It's not so much your confidence in your own ability as it is the willingness to take on that responsibility. If you have that mentality, you can thrive on this work rather than being burdened by it.
Practically, I have spent my time building good relationships with my clerks and have built up my name and reputation both within my own chambers and with solicitors. As a result, I now have much more flexibility with my work and the time I spend doing other things. I now do spend a very solid proportion of my time each other on holiday or not working. Far more than I'd be able to do in paid employment. And I still earn a lot of money relatively speaking, which means my wife and I don't really need to worry about money. Part of that is us being good at managing our finances (something that barristers are notoriously bad at), but as a barrister you should be earning enough quite quickly to be financially secure. I spend enough time with my wife, my kids and my friends, though you are always looking to improve that balance. My routine is obviously variable. There are times I have to be away with work. There are times when I just have to be working at home and don't have much time to do anything else. But then there are times, sometimes days and weeks in a row, where I am very present at home and have the flexibility to do the school run, cook etc. Again, that has gotten better the more senior I have become. It is something you get better at, even if the periods of high workload don't go away. I now consider myself to have a very good work/life balance.
Basically, this job absolutely isn't for most people. It's competitive and requires hard work. But it's pretty difficult to find a job worth doing that isn't either of those things. Personally I couldn't imagine this not being my job, but then I am suited to it. Your son just needs to decide if he is.
All of that said, has your son done any mini pupillages? He should prioritise it if he hasn't. That will give him an opportunity to observe and speak to actual practising barristers doing their day to day job. It's really worth his time to expose himself to that to try gain more experience, insight, and a range of views.
Reply 5
Original post
by jimmybonds007Hi!
So my son is in his second year at a Cardiff Uni doing his LLB and is thinking of doing his BTC there (20% off so seems a no brainer). As dutiful parents we attempted to get him to chat to a Barrister and we were lucky that a friend of a friend of a friend was happy to speak to him. This is individual is at a London Chambers in Commercial Law, being called to the Bar in the late 00s.
Unfortunately, this individual painted a very grim picture which has put our son off. He explained that almost all Barristers are on the spectrum (!), that it's highly highly stressful, with work regularly being given the day before the case. Everyone works 18 hour days and its basically a very miserable and stressful life. He advised my son to avoid the profession like the plague!!
I dont know any other Barristers, so am on here to see if there is perhaps a more neutral or even positive viewpoint! My son is bright, but he's not super bright that he's classed as on the spectrum!
I think he probably got this individual at a bad time as surely life as a Barrister can't be that bad! Appreciate certain areas and chambers (and definitely level) will play a part but would love to hear from any Barristers (London or regional) at any level who may be able to balance this out as right now, he's been put off, understandably!!
Thanks.
So my son is in his second year at a Cardiff Uni doing his LLB and is thinking of doing his BTC there (20% off so seems a no brainer). As dutiful parents we attempted to get him to chat to a Barrister and we were lucky that a friend of a friend of a friend was happy to speak to him. This is individual is at a London Chambers in Commercial Law, being called to the Bar in the late 00s.
Unfortunately, this individual painted a very grim picture which has put our son off. He explained that almost all Barristers are on the spectrum (!), that it's highly highly stressful, with work regularly being given the day before the case. Everyone works 18 hour days and its basically a very miserable and stressful life. He advised my son to avoid the profession like the plague!!
I dont know any other Barristers, so am on here to see if there is perhaps a more neutral or even positive viewpoint! My son is bright, but he's not super bright that he's classed as on the spectrum!
I think he probably got this individual at a bad time as surely life as a Barrister can't be that bad! Appreciate certain areas and chambers (and definitely level) will play a part but would love to hear from any Barristers (London or regional) at any level who may be able to balance this out as right now, he's been put off, understandably!!
Thanks.
Hi!
I'm wondering if your son has chatted to his academic/personal tutor about being a barrister yet? Personal tutors are most commonly known to set up the odd check-in, but they are also quite helpful in giving advice about careers, especially since they would have spent years and years studying as an academic in their field
Also, given that the law department here at Cardiff is well-connected to the industry, even if his personal tutor couldn't help, its worth using the connections from the department in case anyone else has a different perspective to being a barrister.~ Fatiha, Cardiff University Student Rep
Reply 6
I'm a very baby junior at a fairly decent London commercial set and I think the job is great. As the much more experienced people above me have already commented, it is at times immensely stressful and also, at other times, very boring (reviewing thousands of documents about dense factual issues is a key part of it). At the moment the times I do overwork are largely self-inflicted - it's difficult to turn work down when you feel very lucky people want to instruct you at all - and I am hopeful of improving my work life balance as my confidence and seniority increases.
Overall, I don't think there are many (if any) other careers which offer the combination of great earnings; the capacity for immense highs; personal flexibility; and camaraderie that the Bar does, and there are many other jobs just as dull or stressful which don't have a fraction of the perks.
My impression from talking to juniors at other sets is that the lived experience of the job varies massively depending on the chambers - the culture; the level of prestige; the clerking team; and the management structure will all have a big impact on the amount you are expected to work and the quality and quantity of work you receive. These are things it is hard to see externally and one of the reasons work experience is so important.
In my view, it is worth building your CV up before applications in order to get into a set that suits you, rather than taking any set simply to get a pupillage. The Bar is a long and unusual career and I think it is much better to spend time building relevant experience first. Think things like international arbitration internships; High Court / Court of Appeal judicial assistants; and Law Commission research assistants. I had one year of relevant work experience between academia and pupillage and without that I think I would be feeling a lot more overwhelmed (and on reflection I could easily have done more). It can also help you understand whether the Bar really is the only path for you - one of my friends who was dead set on being a barrister enjoyed his stint in an international arbitration firm so much he is now a solicitor specialising in this.
Overall, I don't think there are many (if any) other careers which offer the combination of great earnings; the capacity for immense highs; personal flexibility; and camaraderie that the Bar does, and there are many other jobs just as dull or stressful which don't have a fraction of the perks.
My impression from talking to juniors at other sets is that the lived experience of the job varies massively depending on the chambers - the culture; the level of prestige; the clerking team; and the management structure will all have a big impact on the amount you are expected to work and the quality and quantity of work you receive. These are things it is hard to see externally and one of the reasons work experience is so important.
In my view, it is worth building your CV up before applications in order to get into a set that suits you, rather than taking any set simply to get a pupillage. The Bar is a long and unusual career and I think it is much better to spend time building relevant experience first. Think things like international arbitration internships; High Court / Court of Appeal judicial assistants; and Law Commission research assistants. I had one year of relevant work experience between academia and pupillage and without that I think I would be feeling a lot more overwhelmed (and on reflection I could easily have done more). It can also help you understand whether the Bar really is the only path for you - one of my friends who was dead set on being a barrister enjoyed his stint in an international arbitration firm so much he is now a solicitor specialising in this.
(edited 9 months ago)
Reply 7
I have been a commercial barrister since the 1980s and I love it. All of the downsides identified by my three learned friends above exist, but the job can be super fulfilling and sheer fun, amidst all the stress and slog.
Don't go near the Bar if you are not psychologically robust, physically energetic, able to deal with risk and uncertainty, or if you value a regular pay-cheque, paid holidays etc.
Lots of barristers are nutso, but often in entertaining ways.
Don't go near the Bar if you are not psychologically robust, physically energetic, able to deal with risk and uncertainty, or if you value a regular pay-cheque, paid holidays etc.
Lots of barristers are nutso, but often in entertaining ways.
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